?

Log in

No account? Create an account
StephenT [userpic]

(Poll) Forgiveness, and Beards

4th December 2010 (00:00)

While I'm finishing my review of 'Last Gleaming' Part 4, here's a nice, easy poll question for you to be thinking about, because I'm curious.

Poll #1652793 To forgive is an act of compassion

Can Angel be forgiven?

No, never.
12(22.2%)
Yes. Nobody is irredeemable.
20(37.0%)
Yes, but only if he's really and truly made to suffer first.
5(9.3%)
I don't know what you're talking about.
3(5.6%)
I'm in denial about the whole thing.
14(25.9%)


While for those of you who are already sick of hearing about season 8, here's another and completely non-Buffy-related poll question for you instead. It's based on an argument currently waging over on rpg.net, which astonished me by just how passionate people could get about such an obscure issue. Try not to start a flame war in the comments, please?

Poll #1652794 Do dwarf women have beards?

Do dwarf women have beards?

Yes they do.
31(62.0%)
No they don't.
18(36.0%)
The dwarf race has no female sex.
1(2.0%)
(Yes, I know dwarfs are fictional and the real answer would be "It depends on the author". Please answer how you think dwarfs are and how you'd depict them if you were writing your own story...)

A dwarf, yesterday.

Comments

Page 1 of 2[1][2]
Posted by: Beer Good (beer_good_foamy)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:14 (UTC)

Of course they have bears. They use them to guard the entrance to the mines. Keeps the trolls out. It's why two of the more recognizable constellations over Europe, former Middle Earth, are Ursa Major and Ursa Minor - the night sky, with stars twinkling in the black, looks a lot like a diamond mine. Dwarf women are traditionally* the ones who feed the bears - it's why their axes have a blunt lump instead of a spike on the back, so they can thump the bears over the head if they get too unruly.

* The males say it's women's work; the females say the men just don't dare go near the bears.

...Oh, beards. Yeah, they have those too.

Edited at 2010-12-04 00:15 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:18 (UTC)

Personally, I'm waiting for the first person to take the line that dwarf women have 'beards' in the sense of convenient men hanging around to fool onlookers into not realising all dwarf women are gay...

Posted by: Beer Good (beer_good_foamy)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:27 (UTC)

Posted by: gillo (gillo)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:19 (UTC)
Your gift

Pratchett makes it clear that even dwarves find it hard to tell the genders apart, so yes. Tolkien doesn't have females, so it's moot for Middle Earth. (No, I don't count the grand total of three characters in dresses he shows us. Four if you count Rosie Cotton.)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:42 (UTC)

In one of his unpublished-except-posthumously-by-his-son works, Tolkien says that in Middle Earth not only do female dwarves (a) exist and (b) have beards, but they're born with them. (As are the male babies.)

Of course, you can argue that this means in Middle Earth, all the women are indistinguishable from men...

Edited at 2010-12-04 00:44 (UTC)

Posted by: gillo (gillo)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:58 (UTC)

Posted by: eowyn_315 (eowyn_315)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 17:40 (UTC)

Posted by: brutti_ma_buoni (brutti_ma_buoni)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:19 (UTC)

I have Discworld too deeply ingrained to imagine beardless female dwarfs. They'd be all... nude. *shudders*

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:43 (UTC)

A million dwarfs shudder right along with you...

Posted by: delicate unraveling (elvensapphire)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:23 (UTC)
Buffy Shoot You Down

Gimli's facial expression is so appropriate. For both parts of this, really.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:43 (UTC)

He's not very impressed, is he? :-)

Posted by: erimthar (erimthar)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:47 (UTC)

On the Angel question, I fell somewhere between the second and third options. I don't know what good massive suffering would serve. I think the main thing he has to do is to admit fully to himself that his and Buffy's love is an apocalypse in itself, and that they can't be together ever again.

(Even though, ironically, his curse is probably no longer in effect.)

And no, dwarf women don't naturally grow beards, although some female warriors have them magically grown as a sign of their status. In my world, that is.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:56 (UTC)

I think 'massive suffering' would satisfy the need a lot of people have for vengeance on those who wrong us. I can understand it even if I don't condone it.

Nobody's picked the 'dwarfs don't have gender' option yet, I noticed - which is I believe the original myth from Norse mythology - they don't reproduce like humans do, they were born out of the rock (and/or the rotting corpse of the frost giants.)

Posted by: erimthar (erimthar)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 01:46 (UTC)

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 01:11 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 01:26 (UTC)

Posted by: fangfaceandrea (fangfaceandrea)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 00:56 (UTC)

Yeahh Angel can't be forgiven,not because of the Giles thing though, but because of his stupidity. And the gross space frakking.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 01:14 (UTC)

If being stupid is unforgivable, redemption must be very rare. :-(

(Not saying anything about outer space sex. I don't know if anyone's done that in real life. Maybe some of the astronauts on the International Space Station?)

Posted by: fangfaceandrea (fangfaceandrea)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 01:18 (UTC)

(Deleted comment)
(Deleted comment)
Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 01:22 (UTC)

(Deleted comment)
Posted by: mr_waterproof (mr_waterproof)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 17:28 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 21:15 (UTC)

Posted by: mr_waterproof (mr_waterproof)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 23:09 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 01:19 (UTC)

(Deleted comment)
Posted by: TimeTravellingBunny (boot_the_grime)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 02:35 (UTC)

(Deleted comment)
Posted by: TimeTravellingBunny (boot_the_grime)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 14:24 (UTC)

(Deleted comment)
Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 21:23 (UTC)

(Deleted comment)
Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 22:47 (UTC)

(Deleted comment)
Posted by: Jonathan Korman (jonathankorman)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 02:05 (UTC)

Female gnomes

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<a [...] don't>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Female gnomes <A HREF="http://www.foundus.com/jani/gnomes/lady.htm" don't have beards,</A> so why do all these people think female dwarves do?

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 13:02 (UTC)

Because dwarves and gnomes are two entirely different species? :-)

Posted by: 2maggie2 (2maggie2)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 08:24 (UTC)

It's all about taking responsibility. It'll be interesting to see if Angel does. His redemption has always been undermined by his adherence (at least most days) to the Angel/Angelus dichotomy. I think we're in for a hell of a story with him. He's always done the "oh I must suffer for redemption" schtick, but without tackling the hubris that is the root of his problem. It's one of the coolest things ever, this portrait of a man who takes pride in his redemption in a way that completely undermines the redeeming aspects of his story. He's a complicated guy. A portrait of the problem of protagonist privilege.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 13:04 (UTC)

Does Angel adhere to the dichotomy? I always thought it was something that his friends invented (Buffy and Cordelia especially) to help them process things, but he himself always owned responsibility for his deeds while soulless. He talks about Angelus as "I" not "He".

Posted by: 2maggie2 (2maggie2)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 16:21 (UTC)

Posted by: TimeTravellingBunny (boot_the_grime)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 02:39 (UTC)

Posted by: curiouswombat (curiouswombat)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 11:50 (UTC)
Hmm 2

Well I reckon they have beards anyway!

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 13:05 (UTC)
lassilantar

Tolkien's dwarves certainly do; they're born with them, in fact. :-)

Posted by: lusciousxander (lusciousxander)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 12:40 (UTC)
Unable to Fit In made by thiscanbegin

It is Angel's fault because he chose to be Twilight, but I don't think he really knew what he signed up for. I haven't read #39 yet, but I feel kinda bad for him because he wanted to make things right in #36 and then got possessed by his own creation. I don't think he'll be forgiven easily for killing Giles. That's too big.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 13:07 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. Even if intellectually they know "It wasn't Angel, he wasn't in control of his own actions" I doubt that Buffy and Xander at least will be able to look at him without seeing "The guy who killed Giles".

Posted by: norwie2010 (norwie2010)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 12:51 (UTC)

On redemption:

Nobody is beyond rehabilitation - but it is a question wether or not we put the rescources to table to help or not.

If the rescources are not available, or not given freely, than this means the end of that person amongst our midst.

On dwarves:

Of course female dwarves do have bear(d)s! Depends where you look at...

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 13:09 (UTC)

There's a reason why we say (in English) "to err is human, to forgive divine" - bringing yourself to forgive your enemies is a task beyond many peple's capabilities.

Posted by: norwie2010 (norwie2010)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 13:50 (UTC)

Posted by: candleanfeather (candleanfeather)
Posted at: 4th December 2010 19:18 (UTC)

Of course they have.

Dwarf women without beards are only found in the most pervert fantasies of dwarf porn. (And before you say it, I know it seems like I'm very well versed on dwarf porn. I accept it) :-)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 21:26 (UTC)

Do you have a large collection of it on your hard disk? Or under your bed? :-)

Actually, I suspect to a male Dwarf's eyes, a woman without a beard would be like looking at a Human or even (*gasp, splutter, spit*) an Elf. Ewww.

Posted by: ubi4soft (ubi4soft)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 06:43 (UTC)

Do dwarf women have beards?

I have no idea and my imagination doesn't go further then "they still can have beers"

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 21:27 (UTC)

But do they get the froth from their beers caught on their moustaches? :-)

Posted by: ((Anonymous))
Posted at: 5th December 2010 10:36 (UTC)

I don't know the mechanics, but I have a feeling that with the Seed gone Angel's soul becomes simply irrelevant. If all the magic (in every sense) in the Buffyverse is gone, he's not the Vampire With A Soul anymore. All those roles have passed away...

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 5th December 2010 21:28 (UTC)

Intresting idea. If the Earth's own soul has now been destroyed, does the concept of 'soul' even have a meaning anymore in this Buffyverse?

56 Read Comments
Page 1 of 2[1][2]