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(Review) BtVS 9.03 'Freefall' Part III

10th November 2011 (13:31)

So far I’m seeing two main reactions to Season 9. Some people are loving it; “It’s just like the TV show again!” Others are much more “Meh”; not that it’s bad, exactly, but it so far hasn’t reached the heights or the depth we’ve come to expect from ‘Buffy’. It’s workmanlike rather than inspired by genius. Part of the problem, I think, is that so far most of the big plot twists have been telegraphed in advance – so instead of excited or infuriated speculation on the forums about what this or that scene might actually mean, reading Season 9 feels a little bit more like ticking off boxes. “Right, they’ve introduced him; oh, he’s done his face heel turn already? Next we’ll learn about… oh, right.” So.

In other news: Buffy’s rumoured pregnancy: still not confirmed either way. But it’s only been a few days since the party: she’d probably learn about it (if it’s true) round about, oh, issue 9.06.

So last issue ended with Buffy discovering that the guy she thought she was rescuing actually has the power to convert vampires into human corpses. We start where we left off last month, with Buffy’s internal narrative – which amused me because it reflects something I’ve seen expressed in fandom too. “There isn’t supposed to be more magic in the world. There’s supposed to be less.” Now personally, I liked the high magic level of the Buffyverse, and the story potential it offered; and goddess!Willow was one of my favourite characters. Others, however, have embraced the change in the Buffyverse paradigm, and from what I gather seem to be looking forward to stories with fewer magical dei (or demones) ex machina. So the introduction of yet another new character with superpowers rather goes against their hopes and dreams for the direction the narrative will take.

Still, as Buffy recognises, what Severin does is drain away the magic from other people, so you could argue that his power is more of an anti-magical one. Except that, as we later learn, the power doesn’t go away; each vampire he drains gives Severin’s own powers a charge up.

Oh, and we learn his name in this scene: he is Severin, as suspected. Buffy immediately shortens it to ‘Sev’, which fits the grand Scooby tradition of mangling people’s names, but still seems a little presumptuous of her. He comes across as a little naive, but pleasant and eager to help. I noticed that last time he told Buffy “I’m a Slayer. Like you.” But here he drops that claim, telling her, “You’re the Slayer. I was hoping you could tell me” when she asks how his powers work. He also say that he “Didn’t mean to get you in trouble” referring to the corpses he’s leaving scattered everywhere, that the police are blaming Buffy for. That can be interpreted two ways: either he’s naïve, as I suggested – or he’s evil, and this is all a big act put on for Buffy’s benefit. Buffy isn’t particularly impressed by him – I was amused by her brusquely picking him up by the scruff of the neck to climb onto the rooftop, just in time to avoid the police car arriving.

Speaking of the police, Detective Dowling and his partner (Detective Cheung, we assume, though she’s still not been named in the comic, only in a draft script that got previewed) are knocking on doors trying to find Buffy. It’s been pointed out by a native San Franciscan elsewhere that Dowling’s badge says ‘South San Francisco Police’, which is a separate organisation that doesn’t cover the downtown area around Jackson Square where we were told the missing bodies were found last issue. So a possible continuity error: or maybe the original case started in South SF and these two are still in charge of investigating it even though it’s spread to the rest of the city. It would actually make more sense for Buffy and Xander/Dawn to be living out in the suburbs rather than in the heart of the downtown area, after all, given their income level.

It’s also been pointed out that the preview of this issue showed Anaheed muttering to herself that she should have checked Buffy’s references, after the police have called on her. That line doesn’t appear in the final version of the comic. Maybe the editors didn’t want to give the wrong impression that she was about to turn against Buffy – or the opposite, they wanted it to be more of a surprise when she does. Or maybe it was just a screw-up.

Meanwhile we get to watch Spike doing what he said he’d do last month: some legwork of his own to track down who’s coming after Buffy. The idea of a demon estate agent (‘realtor’ in Amerispeak) is an amusing one, fitting with the competition for upmarket and renovated tombs we saw in Sunnydale. I wonder if a crypt with “granite countertops” is referring to actual kitchen fittings, or the slabs on top of the graves? Incidentally, the name: “Nomed Realty” – spell it backwards. There was also a possibly significant passing mention: the idea that before the Seed was broken, killing at least some demons merely sent them back to their original hell dimension rather than just, you know, killing them. That’s new, and doesn’t really fit what we saw before: or possibly it’s just this particular species of demon that has their power, not all of them.

If demons can’t return to their hell dimensions after they die, that does raise an interesting question: what happens to the souls of ordinary people after their deaths? Are they also trapped in this Earth unable to move onto the afterlife? That would be a fairly major bad consequence of the Seed breaking.

The demon that broke into Buffy’s room last issue is now living in Alcatraz, because the abandoned prison ‘reminds him of home’. I have to say it’s been many years since I visited San Francisco myself but Alcatraz then was a busy tourist landmark, not somewhere a demon could hide securely – unless there are abandoned parts of the prison not open to the public.

Buffy’s spent the night in Severin’s apartment. I think there’s a deliberate fake-out where it appears she’s sleeping naked, having “spent the night” (fnar fnar) with him; but it then turns out when we turn the page that she’s wearing a top with narrow straps, and reacts rather aggressively to the hand trying to wake her. Where did her pyjamas come from, since she presumably didn’t go home to get them? Maybe they belonged to Severin’s old girlfriend? I’m always a fan of Slayer powers in use, such as Buffy going from fast asleep to grabbing a hand approaching her hard enough to hurt, in an instant.

We learn a little of Severin’s background story: he’s wealthy, a “trust fund kid” who has a spectacular apartment in downtown San Francisco. And he found himself killing vampires by accident – he actually wanted to be one himself. Buffy’s reaction to this, “You too?”, was curious; at first I thought she meant she’d also wanted that at some point. That flatly contradicts ‘Nightmares’ in Season 1 when it was her literal worst nightmare; though I suppose that she did also tell Angel that “When I kiss you I want to die”. But on more consideration, I think she’s just fed up with the fact that since vampires became fashionable, a lot of naïve people are wanting to get themselves turned. As she later comments, she still has to slay them afterwards. (Though she says “kill”, not “slay”, which is interesting given that she corrected the police on that last issue. Maybe the line between human and vampire is getting blurry.)

Severin’s girlfriend Clare was a vampire wannabe, it seems. Which, incidentally, proves in passing that Severin is not the new gay character that’s been mentioned as appearing in this season. (Assuming he’s not lying.) (Also, note that he’s being set up as rich, attractive, heterosexual and single.) This was an interesting look at how the world works now that vampires are public knowledge and most of them are choosing to go along with “Harmony’s rules”, as they were called over in ‘Angel and Faith’. Speaking of Harmony, it’s hinted that she actually won ‘Dancing with the Stars’.

Clare’s old schoolfriend Alessandra got herself turned into a vampire, and offers to do the same to Clare who will then turn Severin himelf. This actually reminded me of ‘Disharmony’ on Angel: Harmony was able to resist her bloodlust enough to interact with Cordelia as a friend, but it was a close-run thing some of the time. Alessandra actually seems pretty nice, reassuring Clare that “She won’t bite too hard” – but of course, what she actually then does is kill Clare and drink her blood.

Buffy assumes that Severin’s distress is because he actually didn’t want to go through with the vamping but agreed for Clare’s benefit. But she’s wrong; he really did want it. (Maybe Buffy is a little too trusting? That will be relevant later.) Instead, what we learn is that there’s a new twist in vampire mythology. When Clare rises, she isn’t a normal vampire, but a mindless feral beast. Her vampface is even drawn to look ape-like, or Neanderthal. She tries to kill Severin, and in the moment of crisis he discovers his power.

As when Spike stakes his mother after turning her, Clare’s humanity returns for a tiny instant before she dies again. It looked to me as if she was crying tears of blood.

Severin reveals that every vampire he’s met who was recently turned has been the same; filled with uncontrollable rage. Buffy works out that it’s been happening since she broke the Seed, and immediately assumes that this is all her fault. Very in-character. This does invite the question – how does Severin know so much about these new-style vampires when Buffy doesn’t? Has she never met one, despite going out to patrol every night? It’s not impossible, I suppose; if Buffy stakes first without asking questions later, she might not have even realised there was anything unusual about the vampires she was slaying. Severin, on the other hand, might have kept his contacts to the so-called “vampire community” that he made with Clare, and has heard about it from them. So it would work: but the other possibility is that Severin is either misled or deliberately lying for some reason.

It was an interesting touch that Severin says he’s only using his powers on the feral vampires, or on those who “are still turning people”. He doesn’t see normal vampires as the enemy, only those who are contributing to the problem. He even uses the phrase “Putting them out of their misery”. Here again there’s a question: is he lying? The vampires who were attacking Buffy in the alley last issue didn’t seem to plan to turn her, but he still went after them. Unless he means he’s not fighting the vampires who go about openly in clubs and bars, only those who are still hunting in alleys.

Meanwhile, the police followed up Anaheed’s reference to Buffy’s sister and are calling on Dawn and Xander. Who are still fighting, and apparently it’s over Xander forgetting to plan anything in advance of Dawn’s birthday, or something. I’m not sure whether this is the actual reason for their fight – because it’s rather silly – or a lie they made up on the spur of the moment to fool the police, instead of revealing the real reason. Of course, the distress Xander was in in the first issue seems way to deep to be caused by such a trivial quarrel. (He’s not ‘Tough Love’-era Willow, after all.)

My speculation – which may be totally unfounded – is that the end of magic took away the fake memories everyone was given of Dawn’s life prior to the age of 14. Dawn herself hasn’t realised this – the magic that made her human is now inherent, and that wasn’t affected by the Seed breaking; but everyone else now only remembers her from the last six years or so, and there are odd gaps and lacunae in their memories. Which might explain why Xander forgot her birthday - if that was one of the implanted memories. He can’t tell Dawn the real reason because he’s trying to shield her from that knowledge, and so they’re quarrelling over something apparently trivial because he can’t reveal the real reason. (Dawn, presumably, only knows that Xander is acting all tense and peculiar around her, and it’s stressful.)

Xander mentions that it’s less than three years ago that he lost his eye, which puts the start of Season 9 at no later than May 2006. Interesting. It fits fairly well with the timeline: 18 months from ‘Chosen’ to ‘The Long Way Home’, 10-12 months for Season 8, and then 6-8 months from ‘Last Gleaming’ to ‘Freefall’. It also means that Buffy is 25 and Dawn 19, nearly 20. Of course the timeline is confused by the fact that three panels later Andrew is singing along to the Lady Gaga song ‘Born This Way’ which was released in 2011 – at least it was in our world. So either time in the comics runs at a different rate to our own world and the characters have only lived three subjective years in eight real-world years, or in the Buffyverse pop culture is eight years ahead of the real world. Hmm.

The montage of scenes as Buffy summons the Scoobies to battle was interesting. Xander and Dawn are not impressed, confirming that they really are trying to leave behind that life – but they turn up anyway because Buffy needs them, contradicting the impression some people had last month that they were cruelly abandoning her to her fate. Willow is at work and ignores Buffy’s text. I note that she’s sitting at a table, not a desk, and has a laptop not a desktop PC. Is this just the standard now in American offices, or does it imply that she’s a consultant rather than a full-time employee? Spike is on a boat – I assume the Alcatraz tourist ferry. I was amused by the way he’s dressed up in a trenchcoat and broad-brimmed hat, presumably to shield him from the sunlight but also because his detective work has clearly led him to dress up like Philip Marlowe. Spike always really gets into the roles he plays. :) Andrew is making a robot for some unknown reason…

Willow doesn’t come off too well here; her excuse that she’s at work so she’s too busy to talk would be more convincing if she wasn’t clearly so enthusiastic when she thinks it’s Dawn rather than Buffy calling her. On the other hand Buffy is being a bit manipulative herself, using Dawn’s mobile to ring her since she assumes Willow wouldn’t pick up if she’d known who was really calling. It’s all rather petty all round, but I actually liked the scene; it felt very true to life. And Willow’s sarcastic “Shouldn’t you be on the run from the police?” was funny. (And shows that despite their temporary quarrel she still knows what’s going on with Buffy.) Her reaction to Buffy telling her “You were right” about the Seed’ breaking having consequences was interesting: she seems to be a combination of pleased and shocked. Shocked because Buffy is admitting she was wrong, or shocked because Willow only had a hunch that there would be badness, and has been proved right? It’s clear that whether or not she has knowledge of any specific problems the Seed’s loss will cause, she didn’t expect this one.

It turns out that the new feral vampires are not only mindless and blood-crazed: they’re “meaner, faster, stronger”. (A bit like turok-han, perhaps?)  Hence, they’re a threat. This is an important point, because on the face of it you’d think that unintelligent vampires would be less dangerous, not more. They can’t plan ambitious schemes to end the world – but then again, now that the Seed is broken they couldn’t do that anyway, because no more magic or portals. And most vampires seem now to have agreed to co-exist with humans, as parasites rather than predators, making them less of an immediate danger. The new “zompires” - a word Xander coined and is protective of – are out there killing people while normal vampires have given that up for the moment.

I was amused by Buffy’s plaint that the ‘Vampyr’ book Giles left her in his will is 5000 pages long; I suspect she’s not read it then. In its lack Willow works out what’s happening – or at least comes up with a theory. Vampires are human corpses possessed and animated by a demon; that’s been established canon since the first season. Where does the demon come from, though? I suppose the previous idea was that it was kind of floating around in a vampire’s bloodstream, and when the vampire sires someone, a bit of the demon gets into them too, budding off like an amoeba, and grows to fill and possess them in turn. Willow’s explanation that no, the possessing demon comes from a hell dimension, actually makes more sense – and we can assume that drinking the vampire’s blood after being drained somehow prepares the body to receive the demon and signals it to come over.  It makes sense that these demons can’t enter our dimension anymore with the Seed broken, and that’s why the vampires seem mindless. It’s more of a stretch that they’re somehow “possessing the bodies from another dimension” – what, by remote control? How does that work?

Still, it’s an interesting concept. Breaking the Seed mean that you can’t physically travel from one dimension to another, or draw magical power from there into our Earth. It seems, though, that there’s a loophole after all, and some trans-dimensional effects are still possible. I’m wondering now if Willow is going to get curious about that and start investigating it further.

Severin announces that he knows where there’s a nest of these new zompires, and suggests that he and Buffy attack them together. This struck me as a little suspicious on first reading – it’s very convenient. It would work that he might have known about the nest but not felt confident in attacking them until he had a Slayer’s support, but still. At this point we get the reveal that Xander and Dawn aren’t planning to help Buffy slay – they came to persuade her to go back to the police. “Nobody’s complaining about vampires right now” – an interesting statement if what Severin says about the new feral vampires is true – and she’d be better off sorting things out with the authorities instead of defying them. Willow agrees with them, meaning that Buffy is isolated; only her new friend Severin is saying she should avoid the police instead of giving herself up. It’s made clear that Xander and Dawn are both motivated by concern for Buffy even if they disagree with her; Buffy herself looks kind of sulky and upset rather than betrayed and angry.

Dawn’s mention of prison segues neatly into Spike investigating the demon hideout in Alcatraz. There’s some good snarking and a fight scene before the big reveal that the demon isn’t hunting Buffy to kill her: he want to thank her for releasing him from prison when she broke the Seed. Apparently by the honour code of his people, the Nitobe, he’s now “bound” to her, whatever that means. Which would be a shocking plot twist if I hadn’t guessed it weeks ago. :)

Interestingly, the demon’s name is ‘Eldre Koh’. Which means that when Scott said that he wasn’t ‘El Draco’, he wasn’t exactly lying, but… I wonder what happened: was the original plan to call him El Draco, but at a later date they decided to change the spelling of that to something more demony? Or was it that an interviewer heard a Dark Horse person speaking about Eldre Koh and misheard it as ‘El Draco’? The demon has also been called just ‘Koh’, so maybe ‘eldre’ is a title instead of part of his name. I did see someone joke that perhaps he’s a Mormon…

Eldre Koh gives us the big ominous exposition. The entity that everyone says is coming for Buffy is called “The Siphon”. He “rips magical energy from all he touches – vampire, demon, even Slayer”. He’s also ancient, or at least spoken of in ancient prophecies; demons older than the existence of vampires fear his “arrival”.

Hmm. Does that sound like Severin to you?

Right on cue, it seems that Buffy has decided to ignore Xander and Dawn’s wise advice, and go off with Severin to take out the vampire next rather than going to the police. You could argue that it’s her duty as a Slayer to fight vampires whenever she hears of them, but it still has a strong air of avoidance about it. It’s something that Buffy can convince herself she should be doing instead of the adult, responsible thing. I’m strongly reminded of another scene, in ‘Bad Girls’ when Buffy sneaks out of a test in school to go and deal with another vamp nest with Faith.

Severin reveals that there’s something he hasn’t told Buffy yet: each time he drains a vampire, he gets stronger. Draining an entire nest of vampires might even make him stronger than Buffy. And then she kicks in the door of the nest, and finds that all the vampires there are already dead. Severin knew they were, and his eyes glow green as he activates his powers. Uh-oh. Blackout, end of show, “Continued”…

The obvious conclusion is that this is all a trap. We go straight from Eldre Koh warning Spike about “The Siphon” who’s coming after Buffy, to Severin, whose powers fit the description perfectly. He’s leading her to a dark, remote place in the docks, far from help. He kept an important element of his powers secret from her. He knew the vampires there were already dead, and we can assume he killed them and is now, just as he claimed, more powerful than Buffy. So he’s brought her here to drain her Slayer powers away.

Or has he? I have a sneaking suspicion that this is going to be a fake-out. Severin’s painted as a little naïve and sheltered, and it could be that he simply staged this to impress Buffy and convince her that he really can help her, and she should take him seriously. It just seems a little abrupt to go from Severin being a good guy and even a potential love interest, to revealing him as the season’s Big Bad in only the third issue of the season. I guess we’ll find out next month, whether they’re fighting to the death or just bickering a little – Buffy doesn’t like being lied to, as she mentioned in ‘Predators and Prey’.

Still, if Severin is an enemy, it would be an interesting structure to the episode, with a double twist – Koh is a good guy, Severin is a bad guy. Bait and switch. I doubt that Buffy will be able to defeat him first time around, if all he has to do is put his hands on her head to remove all her powers – which presumably will turn her into a normal woman, not kill her as it does with vampires who are already dead. She’d have to dodge him and run away until she can figure out a way to beat him – though that depends on whether his being ‘stronger’ means that his magic-draining power just works faster or at longer range, or whether he’s actually more powerful in a “beating up Slayers with his bare hands” sense.

I also can’t imagine they’d let Buffy stop being the Slayer, except perhaps temporarily, so I don’t think Severin will manage to drain her. One idea I had, though, is that when Severin drains power, it’s stored inside him. The fact he gets stronger each time he does it reinforces that idea too. So maybe if he’s killed, all the stored-up magic will flood out of him and re-empower whoever’s standing close by? That could give Buffy her Slayer powers back if she does lose them for a few episodes… and if Willow happened to be nearby too, it would also give Willow her powers back. Which if true mean that Willow has a strong personal interest in Severin’s death…

If Severin’s a bad guy it also lets Buffy off the hook with the police, since she can tell them he’s the one leaving the corpses.

Then again… it could be that this is a fake-out and Severin was just trying to impress Buffy… but he’s still the Siphon and will turn out to be the Big Bad after all. So the fake-out would be a fake-out. Eldre Koh says that the Siphon has been known about for aeons: a couple of possibilities are that it’s imprisoned in Severin’s body, like Glory was in Ben, or that Severin himself is the Siphon but both his powers and his memory of who he is were magically locked away. Breaking the Seed broke that spell and gradually his powers are returning. Alternatively, maybe he really is as young as he looks, and what Koh was talking about was an old prophecy rather than an actual ancient being.

And after writing all that I’ve convinced myself that this issue has a lot more depth to it than I originally thought. Huh. :)

Comments

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 13:43 (UTC)
Season 8 - Buffy

And after writing all that I’ve convinced myself that this issue has a lot more depth to it than I originally thought. Huh. :)

This is my problem. The ideas that compromise the story are good. The execution is boring to me. And yes, telegraphed.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 13:57 (UTC)

I'm not bored, just not excited. And as I said, speculating about what Severin might actually intend turned out to be a lot more interesting that just reading the comic...

Maybe it will look better on a re-read? After all, we know the plots of previous Buffy episodes by now so there are no surprises, but that doesn't stop people enjoying going back to them. :)

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 15:34 (UTC)

That's a distinction that's different for different people. I approach stories from an initial stance of experiential reading, of emotional connection and interpersonal tensions. When I take a step back to look at the ideas behind the story, I'm interested. But on a moment to moment basis, it is boring me. Why? Because I'm finding it formulaic and predictable, which happens with the Whedonverse when you're this familiar, but it usually doesn't detract because the character interaction is so entertaining and witty. This? Not witty. The plot's moving. Well, the plot's pretty much what I expect it to be because all the moves are being telegraphed and there's no in-the-moment character interplay to pull me... into the moment. So no joy.

This isn't the sort of thing that gets better on a reread for me. This is the sort of lacking that discourages my rereads. I can go back and rewatch the series over and over because the character interaction is entertaining and heartfelt. This doesn't have that degree of nuance, complexity, and sheer enjoyment of connection for me.

And I keep coming back to this, but it's just... not funny. I'll go reread Issue 1. Issues 2 and 3 aren't the sort of thing I feel the need to experience again, they feel lackluster.

Edited at 2011-11-10 15:35 (UTC)

Posted by: ceciliaj (ceciliaj)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 17:27 (UTC)
buffyrestless

I completely agree with you that they're frustrating and frustratingly not funny, but I do feel like I'm connecting to Buffy as a character, which is enough to keep me interested. stormwreath's commentary on the questions raised by the plot is awesome, but I think that the raw emotion is still there to be untangled, too. *has topic for own review now* *is sad when you are disappointed by comics*

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 17:40 (UTC)

Yeah, the Buffy-character part of it is enjoyable, too. I just feel like there's an overall sense of...lessness? And that's disappointing. I'm hoping it improves as the story develops.

It's really strange, though, because the story feels like it's being very much driven by the plot now, which is really not Buffyesque to me.

I'm being hard on the series, I know, and I'll probably stop complaining eventually since I don't like being negative since it might distill other fan's enjoyment. I'm just pretty disappointed right now. I really really really want to love it. And I don't. :(

I miss Season 8.

Posted by: ceciliaj (ceciliaj)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 17:43 (UTC)
Harmony comics

Does it seem less like less-ness if you think about it with A&F? Because I think I would be very disappointed if this were all we had three months in, but I feel pretty excited about the parallel storytelling...I don't know why I need you to love it for me to love it, I'm sorry. We should have a Season 8 lovefest!

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 17:56 (UTC)

From a structural standpoint, that is a good. But my problem isn't about structure. It's about in-the-moment characterization, humor, tone, and execution. It's about the aesthetic of the Buffyverse genre.

People keep saying it feels more like Buffy, and I don't think it does really. This isn't the show that got me so excited that I'd headbang my way through the credits 'cause I got to hang with the gang.

I just... have serious issues with the dialogue and the humor and the clarity of tone and tonal shifts from moment to moment. The chemistry of the genre-blending isn't quite working, the undercutting of moments isn't quite hitting it for me. The execution isn't coalescing into creating moments in themselves that together create this greater whole. It's like the humor isn't humorous enough, the drama isn't dramatic enough, the quiet isn't quiet enough. We're stuck in second gear and the driver's grinding on the clutch.

A part of this is voice, too, like with Spike's voice. The dialogue was overly wordy, his method of being threatening was like a soliloquy of blandness. How about threatening to rip out the demon's ribcage and wear it as a hat? But no, that line would be too creative for the dialogue we have in Issue 3. (Make sense? I feel like it's hard to articulate this. Like I'm the only one seeing the lessness.)

BtVS was so damned sharp and innovative and witty. And this writing is really not. BtVS runs circles around this issue's dialogue. BtVS is laughing at it with a mixture of intellectual and pop culture jokes undercut by biting sarcasm and self-deprecating humor with a finishing physical comedy gag that makes intelligent commentary on gender dynamics.

---

Or okay, how about a personal way of measuring? BtVS was so funny and joyful of a show that it was capable of lifting me out of my depression. It helped me laugh when I wanted to cry -- and then it made me cry and made crying okay because I discovered I still got to laugh. Freefall Part I had that spirit to it. Parts II and III don't. There's no ecstasy of emotional catharsis.

Edited at 2011-11-10 18:08 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 18:08 (UTC)

I feel like it's hard to articulate this. Like I'm the only one seeing the lessness.

No, you're not. That's what I meant when I said this feels workmanlike rather than genius. If this were the only Buffy I'd ever seen, I'm not sure it would turn me into a fan, or at least not the enthusiatic kind that's inspired to write about the show. But since I'm already there, it's not driving me away. It's just "Eh, it's okay" rather than "OMIGODTHATWASINCREDIBLEMOREMOREMORE!!"

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 18:12 (UTC)



Yes, exactly. It's not driving me away, I'm a Buffy girl. It's just... disappointing. And it's already hard enough waiting a month in between issues. And sure, we've got A&F too but... well I'm a Buffy girl. I want my fannish joy back. As much as Season 8 might've enraged me at times, at least I felt ~strongly. Right now, I feel like I'm being dragged into indifference and that's a feeling I never want from BtVS.

(I thought you might be seeing the same when you described it like that above, but I dunno, I've been getting a lot of pushback on Buffy Forums which made me feel like I'm the only one seeing it this way.)

Posted by: norwie2010 (norwie2010)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 19:17 (UTC)

Eh, there is *always* hateful, reactionary blowback on Buffy Forums. Don't let that isolate yourself. In sea of people who call themselves Buffy fans (but whom i clearly don't understand) - You are always the voice of sanity (whether You squee madly or dissect the text with Your sharp wits :-)).

And i'm with You on the less-ness - but i calm myself with the idea of time frames: Like, we actually watched about two thirds of a TV episode of season 9, and the first 10 minutes were really good, but the next 20 minutes were a bit wooden. New writer maybe? ;-)

So, maybe in retrospective this will just be a slight hiccup (but it is hard to "watch" 10 minutes of BtVS every month...)

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 19:23 (UTC)

You are always the voice of sanity (whether You squee madly or dissect the text with Your sharp wits :-)).

My mad sanity! :D

I agree, it is a relatively short degree of writing and I'm hopeful the writing will pick up, but the slow release is hard.

Honestly, it just makes me want to go back and watch the series. It's like this craving hasn't been met. I'm left hungry for BtVS.

Posted by: norwie2010 (norwie2010)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 19:36 (UTC)

Yes, the slow release is seriously starting on my sanity. It is actually why You need to hang on - when my sanity is dropping, i want to turn to Your sane madness to make sense of it. :)(I don't mind on A&F, but that's partly because i just don't care about Angel anymore - and i'm sure any Faith-story will be slow anyways. So better to read it once each arc is over to get to the juicy Faith-related bits - errr....)

And oh! Yes. Even though i really, really shouldn't do this ATM (too much work) i've started to re-read some classic fanfics, which feel very true to the characters. But actually watching an episode is good, too. I've always meant to re-watch season 4. And now that i have a projector instead of a TV a bear should be a bear! :D CRAVINGS! I HAVE THEM!

Posted by: ceciliaj (ceciliaj)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 18:17 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought workmanlike was a good word. And I don't think these issues could make a fan out of anyone. They don't have the punch, or the wit. But they do satisfy my craving to some degree, and I'm a fan of the art.

Posted by: ceciliaj (ceciliaj)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 18:13 (UTC)

I felt immense emotional catharsis in A&F #1, with the Giles flashbacks. But otherwise, I do agree. I did giggle my head off at Freefall Part one, like at "this is fun and responsible." But it's not the same, I know.

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 18:17 (UTC)
Season 8 - Buffy

A part of me hates this feeling of competitiveness, but I'm a Buffy girl and I want my series to be the one that gives me great emotional resonance. Yet I agree that A&F has been hitting more emotional notes for me. Well, with the exception of Freefall I, most especially that scene in Buffy's bedroom between her and Xander. That and the Buffy/Willow opening scene. I think those were pretty much perfect scenes, where as I have a few quibbles with some of the Giles writing that keeps it from becoming an explosion in my heart.

Sorry I'm such a downer! I want both series to be good!

Posted by: ceciliaj (ceciliaj)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 18:21 (UTC)

I am looking at my issues again, and I'm realizing how much I loved the first issue of each series. I think we'll know a lot more at the end of each first arc -- we will know then what kinds of moments are going to define each series.

I do feel you on the competitiveness -- while others seemed to be annoyed by super Buffy and goddess Willow, I loved them, whereas I just feel sad for /unpleasently relatey with lesser Buffy and lesser Willow. And Faith and Angel seem to be making their same old grand gestures, making their series seem more active.

Edited at 2011-11-10 18:22 (UTC)

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 18:38 (UTC)

I wanna makeout with the opening issues to each series. Freefall I is my lover.

Photobucket

whereas I just feel sad for /unpleasently relatey with lesser Buffy and lesser Willow

Right, and the show took us to that unpleasntly relatey place, but then it snapped you back into the action. That's the tonal shift I'm missing. Watching BtVS was like a rollercoaster ride -- a feeling I still got when I read Season 8. The start to this series feels like we're having trouble getting off the ground after a great start. Maybe we're settling in for the long haul? Maybe this is where the series takes a deep breath before diving into the mayhem.

I'm just worried that mayhem will sacrifice character development for the sake of plot. Which, btw, is something that I felt happened in TVD and Dollhouse (mostly in Season 2) -- which is a niggling worry I have with Chambliss' writing. If I could just get some sense of assurance that the characters expressionism is clearly prioritized over other aspects -- they should be the driving force, you know. And right now they feel a bit out of reach while the plot's all in my face. And I'm all SIT DOWN YO ASS DOWN, PLOT.

(Part of my issue is that I'm having trouble sensing a writer's voice in Chambliss' work. I can identify Whedon, Goddard, Espenson, Fury, Greenwalt, Minear -- identify them in ways that they imbue the works with qualities that are solely them. With Chambliss, it feel like an absence. Like Whedon and he built the framework, then Whedon stepped aside to let Chambliss fill it up with Chambliss, and he's not actually putting himself in there. Sorry, been studying this and thinking about it a lot in conjunction with my fiction writing course. Who are you, Chambliss? I want to know you.)

Posted by: ceciliaj (ceciliaj)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 18:42 (UTC)

I want to know him, too! I think that is an awesome way to phrase it -- he's writing timidly, and it doesn't work, because Joss's structure is all about creating space for writers to do that, not just making sure they get everything right and steer clear of controversy. I love Dollhouse S2 in a big way, but that's because I feel like the actors fill the space created by the structure, and it still overflows and creates catharsis. But I also like the plot so much, that I could be spinning justifications.

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 18:49 (UTC)

With Dollhouse, the actors definitely fill that space! And it makes sense because the Dollhouse metaphor is in part about how the actors are stripped of identity in Hollywood and how they have to rediscover themselves in the parts forced upon them.

he's writing timidly, and it doesn't work, because Joss's structure is all about creating space for writers to do that, not just making sure they get everything right and steer clear of controversy

Photobucket

Posted by: Emmie (angearia)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 17:58 (UTC)
Season 8 - Buffy

I don't know why I need you to love it for me to love it, I'm sorry. We should have a Season 8 lovefest!

♥ ♥ ♥

Posted by: 2maggie2 (2maggie2)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 15:16 (UTC)

I share your speculation about memories of Dawn. It's the best explanation I can think offor the tension. It'd be weird for Xander because Dawn would be real, but not quite real -- and having a big huge lie in the middle of a relationship is a problem.

Great review, as usual! I had other thoughts while reading it, maybe they'll come back to me...

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 15:42 (UTC)

Thanks! It's certainly a fascinating idea for a story even if it turns out not to be what they went with. I sometimes get the impression they've entirely forgotten that Dawn was the Key. :(

Posted by: Stephanie (ladycallie)
Posted at: 12th November 2011 08:35 (UTC)
Buffy -

I agree; I think your Dawn musing would be an amazing storyline.

Great review!

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 13th November 2011 20:20 (UTC)

Thanks!

Posted by: treadingthedark (treadingthedark)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 15:46 (UTC)

"Which might explain why Xander forgot her birthday - if that was one of the implanted memories. He can’t tell Dawn the real reason because he’s trying to shield her from that knowledge, and so they’re quarrelling over something apparently trivial because he can’t reveal the real reason. (Dawn, presumably, only knows that Xander is acting all tense and peculiar around her, and it’s stressful.)"

Excellent idea! This would work for me and could be very interesting.
Also think your ideas about Severin's death re-empowering Willow are good.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 16:26 (UTC)
willow

Thanks! We know something re-empowers Willow, assuming what we saw of her in 'Time Of Your Life' is accurate, so this could be the way. Plus it's really creepy (and thus a good story) if Willow realises that she can get her powers back after all... but only by killing someone.

Posted by: erimthar (erimthar)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 16:41 (UTC)
pic#85222149

I have to agree that this season, we're learning too much about the future story too far in advance. In season 8 we didn't have people posting spoilery reviews of issues 2 weeks in advance... although the solicitations for future issues have always been a problem. It seems like reading the comic itself has almost become an afterthought.

And I do think there's too much magical stuff going on for a supposedly magicless world. It might have been more entertaining to see these characters dealing with a world with NO magic in it. But then, magic is really kind of necessary for the Buffyverse. Without it, you're pretty much left with... Veronica Mars. (Which I also love, but it's something completely different.)

It seems like the upshot of the New World Order is that Willow is screwed, and everybody else is fine.

Willow's explanation about vampire demons "possessing the bodies from another dimension" tripped me up at first, too, until I realized she was just clarifying that the vampires have to come here from another dimension to possess their hosts, which they can't do anymore. (It was unclearly worded.) So the "zompires" are the original feral vampires without a demon spirit to make them sentient.

As I understand, the name "El Draco" never appeared in print, but only in a video interview with Chris Chambliss... people were assuming it was "El Draco" based on its phonetic sound. But, I can easily imagine Xander or Spike dubbing him "El Draco" as a means of remembering his name.

I suspect Buffy and Severin aren't going mano a mano just yet. I see them joining forces to try and rid the world of vampires, until he becomes drunk with power and starts going after the Slayers and the Lornes and Merls and Clems and Doyles of the world as well... and possibly Illyria, which should be interesting.

I really like season 9 so far. It doesn't have the same sense of "Yeah! Buffy's back!" that we had at the start of season 8. And I'm one of the few people who thinks the decision to Go Big with season 8 was not a mistake, but a necessary and appropriate evolution of the story.

But, season 9 clearly isn't going to be the big event season 8 was. I think it will be a good story, though.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 17:02 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with you on the difference between S8 and S9. The worldwide scope worked fine for me, though I won't argue some of it was less effective than it could have been.

I've actually never believed that breaking the Seed would really end magic. They immediately had to handwave it to explain why vampires and Slayers were still around, so I confidently expect even more handwaves to come along as the story requires them. It's more a reduction in the level of it than its absence.

I see what you mean about Willow's explanation, if her last line was just repeating and clarifying the first instead of adding extra explanation. Maybe someone could ask Scott or Andrew to clarify it.

Posted by: erimthar (erimthar)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 17:20 (UTC)
pic#85222149

I think they just tacked that on when they realized it's never been clearly explained how vampires are created in the Buffyverse. It's badly worded, though, because it sounds like the demons are possessing someone in another dimension, rather than coming from another dimension.

Hopefully they'll change the wording for the TPB.

Posted by: erimthar (erimthar)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 16:45 (UTC)
pic#85222149

...oh, and I forgot to mention that I think the Birthday argument between Xander and Dawn is due to a disagreement over when her birthday is... the one the Order of Dagon programmed into her, or the day she actually appeared in the world. X and D seem to be having a disagreement on *when* Dawn's birthday is, which seems odd.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 17:05 (UTC)

Possibly. :) (That would make her birthday 26 September - though I've wondered before if the date she appeared in the world actually was her supposed birthday too.) See my most recent post for what I think they're arguing about.

Posted by: erimthar (erimthar)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 17:28 (UTC)
pic#85222149

Aw, you're already writing season 9 fic. I was hoping I would be by now, but no ideas have presented themselves yet.

I think in the episode "Shadow" it's mentioned that Dawn's supposed birthday is in the summer... they arrived in Sunnydale the summer after they moved from Los Angeles, and had the birthday party for Dawn where Joyce rented the carousel.

But, I don't know if anyone in the Buffyverse knows the moment that Dawn first appeared, or if September 26 would have any significance for them.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 18:02 (UTC)

Oh, if 26 September is Dawn's birthday it would be a private joke by the monks, not something the other characters would know the reason for. :)

Her birthday is definitely between March and September, going by references to her age in various seasons. The fact that her birthday never appears in the show also makes me suspect it's in the summer, though of course we don't know Willow's or Xander's birthday either.

Posted by: Barb (rahirah)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 19:54 (UTC)

If pre-S5 memories of Dawn evaporated from Xander, wouldn't they evaporate from everyone else, too? Including Dawn herself? It's a very interesting idea, but that absolutely no one has mentioned it in the time since the seed broke seems far-fetched to me. Not to say it couldn't happen, but if it's pulled out of a hat three issues from now, it'll feel like major league Roger Ackroyd-style authorial cheating.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 21:05 (UTC)
dawn-squee

If my speculation is true - then yes, absolutely it wouldn't only be Xander who'd lost his memories of her childhood, but everybody.

Dawn herself is a special case, though, because they've already defined that exception. Beings whose magic is inherent to them are unaffected by the Seed breaking; it's only those who draw their magic from outside who no longer can. So Dawn, who was created entirely out of magic and programmed with her memories as part of that, will still remember everything. But other people, who were given their memories by an external spell cast on them, will lose them.

It fits with the conversation Xander had with Buffy in 9.01. There's obviously something that's worrying him, and it sounds like he and Buffy have discussed it before, but they're keeping it secret from Dawn herself. It fits with them gradually realising there are big gaps in their memories where Dawn is concerned - but I don't think it's something they'd realise immediately. Like I suggested in my drabble, it would just be things cropping up here and there that they ought to remember but don't, until suddenly they're hit by the dawning realisation that there's a pattern to them. At which point they freak out.

It might not be the idea Joss has had; but there is some sort of secret or plot involving Dawn and Xander being hinted at.

Posted by: ms_scarletibis (ms_scarletibis)
Posted at: 12th November 2011 19:29 (UTC)

Very intriguing.

You just reminded me--I thought something about this when the whole Seed thing was first mentioned in s8. I do think that your theory about the loss of memory is accurate. It kind of reminds me when Buffy did that spell in s5 to see beyond, well, spells, and saw that Dawn was inserted into their lives. The Seed pulled back the curtain before making it disappear entirely.

On the other hand, I can't imagine Xander much cared about her birthday when she was just a little kid, so him forgetting (allegedly, since her birthday hadn't happened yet) may have nothing to do with that :P

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 13th November 2011 20:20 (UTC)

I can't imagine Xander much cared about her birthday when she was just a little kid

True - but I do think he's been painted as the Scooby (after Buffy herself) more likely to make a point of remembering it. :)

Posted by: Charlie (mzsw33tnesss)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 21:33 (UTC)

I was always under the impression that the demons that possesed the dead bodies of the vampires-to-be were not from our dimention, therefore I kind of just assumed that after the seed broke - there would be no more new vampires. After all, if demons can't cross over to our dimention, then there would be nothing to reanimate the dead bodies in the first place. So I'm a bit confused how even zombie vampires are possible.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 22:43 (UTC)

Well, vampires' blood has something to do with the process: the original vampires were created when the last True Demon to leave Earth mixed its blood with humans. so mybe that has somthing to do with it.

But I'd also assumed that the Seed breaking would mean no new Slayers and no new vampires. Instead we get defective, incomplete vampires. :)

Posted by: TimeTravellingBunny (boot_the_grime)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 21:53 (UTC)
Buffy Tower Tarot

Buffy’s spent the night in Severin’s apartment. I think there’s a deliberate fake-out where it appears she’s sleeping naked, having “spent the night” (fnar fnar) with him; but it then turns out when we turn the page that she’s wearing a top with narrow straps, and reacts rather aggressively to the hand trying to wake her.

Oh dear god, seriously?! Someone actually thought that? Yes I can see it, Buffy is well known for screwing guys she's just met... /sarcasm

potential love interest

Because he's male, attractive, wealthy and heterosexual, right? ertainly not because of any sexual or romantic vibe between them... since there is none.

Interesting theory about Dawn, but why isn't this portrayed as a problem for Buffy? Though their conversation "Wanna talk about it?" "Dawnie" "Doesn't have to know" could be about that.

The explanation about zompires is making the kind of sense that's not, in any case. If the demon can't possess the body, what reanimates them in the first place? What makes them strong, violent and bloodthirsty? What is it that Severin is drawing from them?

I thought demon was responsible for all that. Pure Demon Angel in Pylea was a mindless beast. Not it means...what? That the demon is responsible for the vampires being more, um, human-like?!

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 23:05 (UTC)

Oh dear god, seriously?! Someone actually thought that?

Look how it's framed. It's the last picture on the page; Buffy is asleep in bed, we can see her neck, arm and shoulders and they're all bare; and a hand is brushing aside her hair as its owner says her name. Without other context you'd absolutely say that was a sensual, romantic image. And the fact that when you turn the page you see her looking shocked and grabbing the hand roughly is, I believe, meant to be a surprise: it's such a contrast to what came before.


Buffy is well known for screwing guys she's just met.

She isn't, of course, but I wouldn't condemn her if she were. :)

Besides, she's in freefall now: she'd trying to escape from herself by being impulsive and crazy and irresponsible. It's been strongly implied that she had casual sex with someone at the party; it doesn't seem to me to be entirely outside the bounds of possibility that she'd choose to do so again. Although of course she didn't, so this is all hypothetical.


Because he's male, attractive, wealthy and heterosexual, right?

Yes, exactly. You can't honestly say he's not at least a potential love interest for her when half of fandom has already taken it for granted that they'll hook up?

The fact that they're not flirting madly five minutes after meeting doesn't mean there's no potential there either: there was no sexual vibe in Buffy's first meetings with Angel, Riley or Spike either. Though there was with Parker, as I recall, which probably says something. Something bad. :)


their conversation "Wanna talk about it?" "Dawnie" "Doesn't have to know" could be about that.

That's my thought too. It's a problem for both of them, but more immediately and urgently for Xander because he's living with her.


The explanation about zompires is making the kind of sense that's not

No argument from me here on that, though I can think of a few ways how it might sort of work. Maybe the vampire blood animates the body and gives the bloodlust while the demon provides the motivation and sense of purpose. Or maybe the demons really are remote-controlling the vampire bodies in a clumsy and random fashion, instead of being able to Assume Direct Control (/Mass Effect).

Posted by: TimeTravellingBunny (boot_the_grime)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 23:43 (UTC)
Buffy Tower Tarot

She isn't, of course, but I wouldn't condemn her if she were. :)

I wouldn't either, like I wouldn't be condemning Xander for screwing random women; it's just that he's unlikely to do that since it's OOC.

Besides, she's in freefall now: she'd trying to escape from herself by being impulsive and crazy and irresponsible. It's been strongly implied that she had casual sex with someone at the party; it doesn't seem to me to be entirely outside the bounds of possibility that she'd choose to do so again. Although of course she didn't, so this is all hypothetical.

She was very drunk at the party. It doesn't make sense to go from "she only has casual sex when she's drunk to the point of not remembering anything" to "just two days later she's having casual sex with the first person she meets while fully sober".

Furthermore I find the idea that "freefall" in a female character has to involve sex with strangers cliche and annoying.

Yes, exactly. You can't honestly say he's not at least a potential love interest for her when half of fandom has already taken it for granted that they'll hook up?


Anyone is potential love interest, before proven otherwise. The fact that fandom has decided that any attractive male character Buffy interacts with must be a love interest before the character even appeared in the actual comic, just based on the fact that there would be a new male character interacting with her in a significant way, is an excellent reason why he shouldn't be a love interest. Do the writers of BtVS know to write a male/female interaction (without any of them being gay) that isn't romantic/sexual? Or do they subscribe to the opinion that it always has to be?

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 12th November 2011 14:18 (UTC)

Willow in her teens was a hopeless romantic who believed in lifetime faithful monogamy and true love. Willow in her mid-twenties dumped one girlfriend and hooked up with another between two issues of the comic. People change. Attitudes to sex between a teenager and a 20-something are more likely than most things to change, in fact, as they grow in self-awareness and confidence. So while this is all still purely hypothetical, I wouldn't find it out of character if Buffy at 25 was more sexually active with different partners than Buffy at 19 - whether she's drunk or sober.


I find the idea that "freefall" in a female character has to involve sex with strangers cliche and annoying.

I'm the opposite, I'm afraid; I find it annoying if it's implied that female characters can't be written as sexually active (outside of a permanent long term relationship) in case readers find that 'shameful' and 'wrong'.



Do the writers of BtVS know to write a male/female interaction (without any of them being gay) that isn't romantic/sexual?

Sure. Buffy and Spike in Season 7. :D But I think that's more a fandom thing that a writer thing, the urge to pair up everybody and everything.

Posted by: TimeTravellingBunny (boot_the_grime)
Posted at: 12th November 2011 15:03 (UTC)
Buffy Spike heart Spuffy

Willow in her teens was a hopeless romantic who believed in lifetime faithful monogamy and true love. Willow in her mid-twenties dumped one girlfriend and hooked up with another between two issues of the comic. People change. Attitudes to sex between a teenager and a 20-something are more likely than most things to change, in fact, as they grow in self-awareness and confidence. So while this is all still purely hypothetical, I wouldn't find it out of character if Buffy at 25 was more sexually active with different partners than Buffy at 19 - whether she's drunk or sober.

People don't change in the space of one day. Buffy was still portrayed in season 8 as someone who needs a connection to someone (like, you know, knowing and liking a person) to have sex with someone, and in #1 she's been shown only showing sexual interest in people she used to have serious relationships with; it's implied that she hasn't been having any casual relationships or one-night stands, and that if she did have sex with someone, it was while she was dead drunk.

So, from someone who can only (possibly) have casual sex if she's totally drunk at a party, she becomes someone who has casual sex all the time while sober - in the space of one day?! Sorry, you need to do better than that. That would be really, really bad writing.

I'm the opposite, I'm afraid; I find it annoying if it's implied that female characters can't be written as sexually active (outside of a permanent long term relationship) in case readers find that 'shameful' and 'wrong'.

And how it that "opposite"? If a female character is portrayed as being in "freefall" - by having casual sex, isn't that exactly how casual sex is portrayed, as something shameful, wrong, and a sign of a woman being in a bad emotional place and "freefalling"? How on Earth is it sex-positive to have Buffy have sex while she's dead drunk because she was trying to cope with her emotional problems by trying to party and look happy - sex she doesn't even remember?

If the writers wanted a sex-positive portrayal of casual sex, that would have been easy to do: show a woman in control of her capacities unambiguously choose to have sex, for pleasure, not out of despair.

Sure. Buffy and Spike in Season 7. :D

I assume that's a joke.

Posted by: TimeTravellingBunny (boot_the_grime)
Posted at: 10th November 2011 23:46 (UTC)
Buffy Tower Tarot

The fact that they're not flirting madly five minutes after meeting doesn't mean there's no potential there either: there was no sexual vibe in Buffy's first meetings with Angel, Riley or Spike either. Though there was with Parker, as I recall, which probably says something. Something bad. :)


Oh, I'd say there was a clear sexual vibe between Buffy and Angel in their first meeting, Joss was very much going for belligerent sexual tension there (before Angel changed his personality by Greenwalt-written episode 4), and Buffy described him as "gorgeous in an annoying way" right afterwards. And whether that was intended by the writers or not, I think there was a strong sexual vibe between Buffy and Spike. Certainly the way he stalks her at the Bronze and "I smell the blood of a nice, ripe girl". But I still didn't think at any point in season 2 that anything was ever going to come out of this strange belligerent sexual chemistry. It just didn't occur to me. Later on, as soon as I realized it would, I thought "Wow, I can see that, they always had this kind of vibe!"

It just wasn't explicit.

Could Buffy and Severin have some sort of romantic relationship? Based on their scenes, they may or they may not have anything like that at all. Though it becomes much less likely that they will, with this cliffhanger. Even if he doesn't attack Buffy now (I think it's a misdirect), she sure has reasons to be careful with him. But the point is, there is nothing to actually suggest that he's going to be a love interest, so already presuming he would be her lover as the fandom used to do for months - well, can you say 'jumping the gun'?

And actually you make another point why it's less likely now. Guys that were temporary love interests had an explicit flirtatious vibe or the interest was established immediately: not just Parker, but also Owen, Tom from Reptile Boy, Cameron from Go Fish, Scott Hope was even introduced as her new boyfriend... Some of them lasted as 'potential love interests' for less than 1/3 of the episode (Cameron) or made it to the last act (Tom) before they were revealed as evil, jerks etc. The show has the time to develop long-term relationships.

If Severin is going to be a short-term love interest (like the guys above, who lasted sometimes not longer than one date), they'd have to establish romantic interest quickly. Unless he's supposed to be a love interest that would last the entire season or half a season in that role... Which would require him to be on Buffy's side for most of the season. And that isn't looking very likely.

If there's going to be a new love interest, it's more likely to be someone who will not be revealed as the Big Bad very soon or has already. Like Dowling the cop, perhaps.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 12th November 2011 14:26 (UTC)

Like Dowling the cop, perhaps.

Interesting idea.

The problem with the comic format, of course, is that you miss the actors flirting with each other to establish a sexual vibe. There are bits in the interaction between Buffy and Severin that could be interpreted as hinting that way - the familiar manner in which Buffy immediately shortens his name, several examples of physical contact between them even if it's violent (but see: Spike), the waking up scene. Like you, I don't read it a particularly sexual; but if they do become lovers I think we could go back to this and see it there.

Posted by: TimeTravellingBunny (boot_the_grime)
Posted at: 12th November 2011 15:13 (UTC)
Buffy Tower Tarot

I don't see how they could make them lovers at this point without having some huge "Gotcha! It was a fake-out! Severin really isn't evil or untrustworthy!" turnaround. Even if he's not going to be her enemy immediately, he's been portrayed in sinister terms and as the probable bad guy.

There were lots of times on the show when Buffy was attracted to guys who seemed nice but turned out to be evil or jerks or connected to evil (Tom, Cameron, Parker, Ben), but she was interested in them while they plausibly seemed to be nice guys. I don't see what the point would be of making Buffy look like an idiot by putting her trust in Severin now. Unless it's what some people on BF seem to want to see, a scenario where Buffy is "taught a lesson" that she's supposedly not appreciating Spike's awesomeness because she's a stupid ungrateful bitch, which means she's not allowed to hang out or date or be attracted to anyone but Spike, even when they're not in a relationship (and when he isn't showing any signs he wants them to be, to the point that he's smooching other people in front of her). No, thanks.

If there is to be a new love interest for Buffy, I'd much rather have it be someone who is actually a good guy, and that Buffy wouldn't look like a moron for trusting.

Posted by: ((Anonymous))
Posted at: 11th November 2011 21:58 (UTC)

And he found himself killing vampires by accident – he actually wanted to be one himself. Buffy’s reaction to this, “You too?”, was curious; at first I thought she meant she’d also wanted that at some point. That flatly contradicts ‘Nightmares’ in Season 1 when it was her literal worst nightmare; though I suppose that she did also tell Angel that “When I kiss you I want to die”.

I was reminded of the season 2 episode "Lie to Me" where Ford wanted to become a vampire. And the way Sev looks, it's not that far of a stretch that Buffy would think of that.

But on more consideration, I think she’s just fed up with the fact that since vampires became fashionable, a lot of naïve people are wanting to get themselves turned. As she later comments, she still has to slay them afterwards. (Though she says “kill”, not “slay”, which is interesting given that she corrected the police on that last issue. Maybe the line between human and vampire is getting blurry.)


It always was blurry.

It's season 9 now and one would think that they would have found the time to dive into the ethics of when it is correct to kill a vampire. It's kind of taken for granted. "They're evil! Kill. Them. All!" (And yes, I do know that in Buffyverse, they always were played being "evil" for "evil" sake. Which often put them in the dumb-category, but oh well.)

That only a "soul" seems to be the one thing to put a vampire into the do-not-slay-category seems kind of arbitrary. So I'm kind of pro-Harmony ;)

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