?

Log in

No account? Create an account
StephenT [userpic]

(Meta) Keeping the faith

7th September 2007 (16:01)

So, there's been lots of complaining about how out-of-character and inconsistent Faith was in 'No Future For You #1', accepting Giles' mission just like that.  And you know what? They're quite right. I mean, just look at the evidence:


After Sanctuary, Faith became a pacifist. She swore never to raise a finger against another living thing.





Everybody around her supported her new ethical stance. They told her that the end never justifies the means, and that it's always wrong to get your hands dirty, no matter what the reason.






These lessons fitted well into Faith's over-inflated sense of self-importance., She'd never dream of sacrificing herself - literally or metaphorically - to serve some greater good.






After all, it's not that she thought that putting yourself through suffering and degradation was a valid way of atoning for your past crimes.






No, the lesson Faith took from her time in LA was that it was best to withdraw from the world, and not risk harming her new ethical development by getting involved in anything that might be morally dubious.






Indeed, she was now contemplative and withdrawn. Never again would she rush into a fight against Evil without weighing all the options, and considering whether she was doing the right thing, or whether the evil she was told to fight might actually have justification on its side.






And above all, the thought of raising even a finger to harm another human would never, ever cross her mind again. She'd flinch at the very thought.






And why not? Because her own purity and shining moral perfection are all that matters to her. Some might think her selfish, but she didn't go through all the pain of redemption to throw it all away by getting involved in other people's problems.





The end.

Comments

Posted by: mrs_underhill (mrs_underhill)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 15:35 (UTC)
puppet_spike

THANK YOU!

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 15:42 (UTC)
faith

:-)
You agree with my point of view, then?


(I think this one is going to run and run...)

Posted by: mrs_underhill (mrs_underhill)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 15:50 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 15:57 (UTC)

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 15:49 (UTC)
Buffy (Lie To Me) by indulging_breck

Oooooh! It bites back! *g*

Seriously though, *my* problem isn't really OOCness, it's this (to quote yourself):

And in this comic, we see her at her lowest ebb; Robin ignores her attempts to flirt and gives her a shitty job that his precious newbies are too delicate to handle, and when she arrives home simmering with pent-up violence Giles appears. It's no wonder she's depressed...

The thing is, I can't tell if it's done because the story is going to be a deep exploration of Faith's issues (which I'm all for), or if Faith's been put in that situation so they can tell a story about trying to kill a Slayer... Basically - is this thing character driven or story driven? If it's the latter then Faith's getting one heck of a rough deal. ('We need Faith to agree to kill a Slayer, ergo she has to be in a situation where she'd find that acceptable.')

Does any of that make sense? It's like... Riley. He was thrown at Buffy in S6, with a happy life and perfect wife, not for his own sake, but to make Buffy feel bad. The Hand of the Author is working in similar ways with Faith, and I worry why.

And I hope she's going to try to help Genevieve, and her easy acceptance is a smokescreen. She knows the price for ending a human life, and I don't think she'd be willing to pay it so easily.

Posted by: aycheb (aycheb)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:03 (UTC)

I really don’t see the Riley comparison. Faith is as blatantly the POV character of this comic as Buffy was of AYW. It starts and ends with her, she gets all the voiceover and flashback action as well as being by character in most panels, with the most head shots and the best lines. And how could a story about trying to take out a rogue slayer coming to it from the mirror image of her own background not be about Faith’s issues?

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:11 (UTC)

Posted by: aycheb (aycheb)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 17:01 (UTC)

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 17:58 (UTC)

Posted by: aycheb (aycheb)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 18:38 (UTC)

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 19:48 (UTC)

Posted by: aycheb (aycheb)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 21:23 (UTC)

Posted by: mrs_underhill (mrs_underhill)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:04 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:47 (UTC)

Posted by: mrs_underhill (mrs_underhill)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 17:16 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:11 (UTC)

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 17:02 (UTC)

Posted by: aycheb (aycheb)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 18:08 (UTC)

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 20:35 (UTC)

Posted by: aycheb (aycheb)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 21:52 (UTC)

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 8th September 2007 07:25 (UTC)

Posted by: aycheb (aycheb)
Posted at: 8th September 2007 08:14 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 8th September 2007 17:31 (UTC)

Posted by: fix me, motherfucker! i'm standing right here. (immortality)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 15:57 (UTC)
Comeback of the Year

Win. <3

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:16 (UTC)

Thanks. :-)

Posted by: Beer Good (beer_good_foamy)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:05 (UTC)

Nice try. ;-) I was thinking about simply nicking your pictures and using them to make the exact opposite point, but...

"After Sanctuary, Faith became a pacifist. She swore never to raise a finger against another living thing."

I don't think anyone's claimed this. But you'll notice that a) she doesn't actually go through with her threat towards Connor, and b) this is before a lot of stuff happens to her over the course of three episodes, causing her to do some hard thinking.

"Everybody around her supported her new ethical stance. They told her that the end never justifies the means, and that it's always wrong to get your hands dirty, no matter what the reason."

Wesley, at the time, was a grieving, borderline psycho (not unlike Faith a couple of years earlier). I'm not sure that him torturing people and taunting Faith qualifies as a good thing. Oh, and Faith arguably ended up proving him wrong on this particular instance.

"She'd never dream of sacrificing herself - literally or metaphorically - to serve some greater good."

You keep using that argument. If I kill someone, will I be able to tell the cops I was actually sacrificing myself? Yes, the Faith of "Five By Five" was, to paraphrase Monty Python, a murderer who was really an extrovert suicide. If something happened to make her revert to that exact way of thinking again, I'd like to know what.

"After all, it's not that she thought that putting yourself through suffering and degradation was a valid way of atoning for your past crimes.

No, the lesson Faith took from her time in LA was that it was best to withdraw from the world, and not risk harming her new ethical development by getting involved in anything that might be morally dubious."

In which of these two sentences are you being ironic? Because they sort of contradict each other. 8.06 seems to indeed have Faith withdrawing from the world - to the point where she's trying to buy a passport to get away from it all (which sort of contradicts the "Never stop fighting" quote, doesn't it?)

"Indeed, she was now contemplative and withdrawn. Never again would she rush into a fight against Evil without weighing all the options"

Again, nobody's said this. But also again; in the Buffyverse, the line has always been drawn at taking another human life. That's the line that haunted Faith (identifying herself as a murderer rather than a Slayer). That's what The First used to get to her. If that's been constantly on her mind for years, I'd like to think she would at least give it SOME thought before once again signing up to assassinate someone.

"And above all, the thought of raising even a finger to harm another human would never, ever cross her mind again. She'd flinch at the very thought."

You're still arguing against strawmen here. Nobody's saying Faith wouldn't punch Buffy (or indeed anyone else) in the face if provoked. Killing them? As she observes in that exact picture - different matter. Has been throughout the series.

At some point, I think we're simply going to have to agree to disagree and wait for the next issue. Because it's all interpretation, obviously. But without backstory on what happened during season 7 1/2 or whatever we want to call the gap, I still don't buy neither the situation Faith is in nor how easily she makes this decision. It's wrong.

The end.

Posted by: aycheb (aycheb)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:30 (UTC)

I think Faith is a complicated and conflicted character and like many ex-con’s having a hard time settling back into the world outside prison. She was on the verge of committing suicide by duty in Orpheus when the need to save Angel brought her back into the game at the last minute (his words weren't enough). There’s no Angel in Cleveland, she went there with Robin but that didn’t work out and we know from the Wishverse what being friendless in Cleveland can do to a Slayer. She doesn’t immediately accept Giles’s mission, there’s a whole page between his naming the target and her asking who the evil bitch is. And she knows from evil bitches, she’s being asked to kill her old self by yet another male authority figure and Faith has always done what Daddy asked, she never grew out of that in the TV series just moved from one morally ambiguous Father-figure to another. Hopefully this is something she can learn to grow out of in the current story.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:40 (UTC)

Posted by: Beer Good (beer_good_foamy)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:53 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 17:30 (UTC)

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 17:08 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 17:27 (UTC)

Posted by: Beer Good (beer_good_foamy)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 17:41 (UTC)

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 17:50 (UTC)

Posted by: tessarin (tessarin)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 17:03 (UTC)

Posted by: ladypeyton (ladypeyton)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:18 (UTC)

Hello. I friended you for the intriguing S6 comic commentary you make.

Nice to meet you!

Posted by: A. (inperfectpeace)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:22 (UTC)
House- Wilson pwns House

This is great! ♥

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:49 (UTC)

Thanks! (and like the icon).
:-)

Posted by: ladypeyton (ladypeyton)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:25 (UTC)

BTW, I totally heart and agree with your synopsis of Faith's motives. I was a little surprised to see all the outrage on LJ because it never even crossed my mind that Faith was acting out of character.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:49 (UTC)
faith

Thanks! (and for the friending).

She seemed in character to me too, but I'm learning to always expect outrage on LJ over everything...
:-)

Posted by: tessarin (tessarin)
Posted at: 7th September 2007 16:52 (UTC)

Still with Beer_Good_Foamy here.:-)
Those are all strawmen arguments.

Would a slayer who flinches at Wesley's torture so readily agree to murder again when the last time she did that she ended up begging Angel to kill her. Her threatening of Conner is just that a threat, a beat down to assert her primacy. A weapon to get the job done which is concerned with saving not killing Angel.

She might as penance for the greater good, to do the dirty jobs but I for one need to see the process not have to fill in all the blanks (fanwank) every issue. As I unlike you do not blankly trust Joss to have thought through his plot and characterization. Something he has already admitted after just five issues. Who is to say he has not done the same here.

As for going back to Sunnydale she did give it a some thought we saw that on Angel.

S4 Angel and S7 Buffy have her rebuilding bridges not hiding away in a skanky room in Cleveland before a dark descent.

Where have we seen that before down to the white tee? I know the middle of S3.

Sure she is not buddy buddy with the scoobs but she is reconnecting I would like to know what reversed this other than writer fiat.

"Honestly? I think Joss and Brian sat down and said "We need to tell a four-episode story about Faith. What would be an interesting situation to put her in?"

Well we know that is about it, the situation(plot) rather than the character came first. A this would be cool, much like giant Dawn. Both he and BKV are thinking cool we couldn't do that on TV due to budget lets do it know even if it does not make sense. BKV said as much in his early interviews as did Joss.

I don't think people are saying she wouldn't do what Giles is asking , I would actually expect her to react angrily and violently to the suggestion prior to grudging acceptance.
It is just that the quick glib acceptance jars and does not jib with the direction she was heading in when we left her. With Wesley we saw it the road that took him from mil mannered watcher to torture and the reasons behind it. The comics? No sorry guys just got to fanwank a reason. She's alone because she broke up with Robin ( like that would matter) and the scoobs abandoned her in cleveland ( because four characters all make exactly the same mistake as the first time around). Because all the newbie slayers hate her(fanwank)

It's not pacifism vs violence. Its murder a whole different kettle of fish. Its a very important line for this particular character. Her crossing it again so easily is the entire crux of the problem.

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 8th September 2007 07:56 (UTC)
Smile Fan by buttersideup

Amen to everything you wrote, especially this:

It's not pacifism vs violence. Its murder a whole different kettle of fish. Its a very important line for this particular character. Her crossing it again so easily is the entire crux of the problem.

I am hoping that she's planning on helping Genevieve, and only pretending to go along with Giles. Otherwise she ain't my Faith.

Posted by: skipp_of_ark (skipp_of_ark)
Posted at: 8th September 2007 17:19 (UTC)

Posted by: Mrs Darcy (elisi)
Posted at: 8th September 2007 17:41 (UTC)

Posted by: Easily distracted fangirl. (cursedfire)
Posted at: 15th September 2007 13:43 (UTC)

Faith being OK with her mission didn't bother me much. Because Giles wouldn't have come her to kill a human if things weren't serious. I think she grasps that.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 15th September 2007 16:17 (UTC)

I agree. Although have you seen the spoiler preview for the next issue yet? (If you haven't I won't say anything more here...)

Posted by: Easily distracted fangirl. (cursedfire)
Posted at: 16th September 2007 07:57 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 16th September 2007 16:06 (UTC)

Posted by: leseparatist (novin_ha)
Posted at: 5th January 2008 19:19 (UTC)
[buffy] faith fire komiks

YAY!

I laughed out loud. This was really... excellent. Really.

Also, I need more season 8 icons...

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 7th January 2008 00:09 (UTC)

Thank you! (In fact, consider this a general 'thank you' for all your comments.) I've done a few season 8 icons, and maharet83 has done a lot more if you want to check her journal.

50 Read Comments