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(Commentary) For A Few Kisses More

22nd June 2009 (23:05)

A little while ago lavastar  asked me for commentaries on my 'Kisses' trilogy of fics. This is the last in the sequence, talking about 'For A Few Kisses More'.

This fic was the first time I ever wrote an explicit sex scene. Some of the people over on InsaneJournal had declared 1 September 2007 to be Bring Back The Porn Day, on which everybody should post some smut in order to celebrate fandom's sex-positive nature and refusal to be cowed by repressive authority and so forth. I didn't have an IJ, but I was thinking that I'd never quite had the courage to write an NC-17 fic, and maybe I should. So I did.

Having recently written 'That Other Kiss', it seemed easiest to use that as inspiration, and write a more explicit continuation. It was only once I'd written about a third of it that I realised I might have chosen an easier topic for my first ever attempt at porn than a Buffy/Willow/Tara threesome. :-) But I managed to finish it, and at least nobody posted to say they hated it, or defriended me or anything, so I suppose it didn't suck too badly.

As should be evident from the introduction, this commentary will contain references to Adult Concepts, such as the difficulty of writing convincing femslash when you've never had lesbian sex yourself, terminology for genitalia, the need for clear and enthusiastic consent to specific sexual activities (yes, I do go there) , body language between established couples, and some reflections on the power dynamic in Willow and Tara's relationship.


For A Few Kisses More

>> When I wrote 'That Kiss', I never planned to write a sequel - but I did. When I wrote 'That Other Kiss' I never planned to write a sequel to that either. But I did. By this time, the title 'For A Few Kisses More' just seemed so obvious. It's a Clint Eastwood reference, of course. Ironically, there is in fact only one kiss described in this particular episode...

Buffy stretched, rubbing her head backwards against the grass, sighing contentedly. That had been nice. It was probably going to seem a lot more complicated once she let herself think about it, but for now, she was going with 'nice'.

>> As the introduction to the story originally said, this starts about twenty minutes after the last one ended. What happened in the meantime? Well, Buffy's lying on her back feeling all languorous, and we're about to learn she's naked and Willow just got up from between her legs, so what do you think just happened? :-)

>> I began the story like this for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I was afraid that a detailed description of an entire extended session of lovemaking between not two but three people would get a little long-winded... the Tab A and Slot B stuff could become repetitive when you've got a Slot A, a Slot B and a Slot C all wanting attention. So I decided to focus in on one particular time-segment in detail rather than skim over the rest.

>> More importantly, this was the first time I ever wrote explicit porn, and for reasons which are hopefully obvious I've never had first-hand experience of lesbian sex myself. I don't know what it feels like to be a woman receiving oral sex, for instance. Yes, I can make analogies from possibly-similar things I can experience for myself; I can ask my women friends what it feels like; and I can read porn that was written by women. At the time, none of that made me particularly confident that I could capture the feelings in text. (And yes, I've read the occasional fic written the other way, by a woman describing a man's experiences, and thought "Huh. It really doesn't work like that"... so I don't think my fear was irrational.) However, while I might not know what it's like to be on the receiving end, I was on firmer ground when it came to the giving... and so I decided to make this fic focus very closely on Buffy's POV as she goes down on a woman for the first (and in her case, possibly last) time of her life. There at least I could write what I knew.

She propped herself up on her elbow, looked over towards her friend. Willow had wriggled around again, was now sitting cross-legged on the ground between Buffy's ankles. Tara knelt behind her, arms wrapped around her torso, chin resting on her shoulder. Both women's eyes searched her face enquiringly: Tara smiling, Willow looking a little apprehensive.

>> All through the fic I kept on double-checking myself to make sure they were all in realistic positions, and nobody was having to contort her body or suddenly teleport from one side of the scene to the other. As elisi said about her Buffy/Spike/Angel fic written shortly before I wrote this, threesomes are hard.

"How did you like it? Was it nice?"

>> You may notice that the characters here seem a lot less drunk than in the previous fic. You can say that's because they're young and resilient and some time has passed, or that Willow and Tara cast a "sober up" spell... but really, it's because I wanted to write erotic porn, not comedy drunken-fumbling-and-throwing-up porn. Because that's not sexy.

Buffy smiled languorously as her own word came back at her. "Mmmm. Definitely. Thank you." She took in Willow's pleased look of relief, then met Tara's eyes. "Thank you both."

>> Okay, let's talk about each character's motivations. As in the prequel, this is written from Buffy's POV with an unreliable narrator, so we can only guess what Willow and Tara are thinking. Basically, though, Buffy is driven mostly by curiosity, teenage hormones, and the feeling that she's young, she's a college student, she's with her good friend Willow whom she trusts with her life, and you've got to try these things, don't you? Willow is in a state of bubbling-over panicky lust. She's fantasised about herself and Buffy somehow hooking up for years, but never ever imagined it would really happen. And now it has, she's terrified she'll say or do the wrong thing, and it will all go wrong or turn out to be a dream or something.

>> As for Tara, I think she's mostly agreed to this for Willow's benefit... but you might notice that all the way through, Tara - in her quiet and self-effacing way - is the one taking charge of the situation. She decides what will happen next. Basically, Tara is letting Willow have sex with Buffy, but only on her terms. Plus, she thinks that Buffy is hot and this is exciting and daring and something she'd never have thought she'd do before she met Willow, so there's that too.


"I didn't do anything. Th-that was Willow, you know." But she grinned as she said it.

"You know what I mean."

Tara nodded, then blushed, coyly hiding her face in Willow's neck as she added. "I w-was just being lazy. Poor Will's tongue's probably all numb and achy now. It's h-hard work, you know."

>> Back when I was pretty much the age Buffy, Willow and Tara are in this fic, my friend J told me the hardest thing about being a lesbian was the sore tongue. I'm not sure I entirely believe her, but she did at least inspire this line. :-)

"No it's not!" Willow protested. "I can still-"

>> Willow doesn't want Buffy to think she's not enjoying this in case Buffy decides to stop.

Tara's finger on her lips silenced her, then her lover gripped her shoulders and tried to pull Willow back onto the grass. The redhead squealed, then giggled and tried to wrestle her way free, but Tara had the advantage of surprise and leverage. They ended up in a tangled heap on the grass, and after more giggles - and an impromptu kiss as their struggles brought faces together temporarily - Tara triumphantly pinned Willow to the ground and sat straddling her torso.

"You're n-not gonna do anything now, Willow, except lie there and enjoy yourself..."

"Yes, ma'am."

>> Willow says the same thing to Tara in 'Seeing Red'. The idea of Tara wrestling Willow to the ground and pinning her there appealed to me as a way of showing that behind closed doors, when she's with someone she feels totally safe with, she's more than the nice, shy, unassertive and passive person she appeared to be back in Season 4. Also, given how controlling and driven Willow gets to be in the later seasons, I do wonder if in private, and in bed, she sometimes preferred to abandon that façade and just let someone else take charge for a while. ("Hey, Will, this is me. It doesn't all have to be 'good' and 'fine'. This is the room where you don't have to be brave.")

"Shouldn't I do that?"

Buffy's question brought both women's heads around in surprise, giving her the distinct impression that they'd forgotten about her presence. She squirmed a little inside, fighting the urge to run away into the night - which in her current state of nakedness might prove unwise. But she'd said it now, so she forced herself to continue.

>> I think she's right, actually. Willow and Tara pretty much had got so caught up in each other they'd forgotten Buffy was there. Also, note that Buffy's huge sense of responsibility, verging on martyrdom complex, is driving her here.

"It is my turn. I want to be fair." She looked into Tara's eyes, almost quailed. "If it's okay, that is..."

Tara ducked her head, considering. She looked back down at Willow, who'd gone very still. Her lover was biting her lip nervously, gazing up at Tara with huge dark eyes. Tara lifted her eyebrow a fraction, felt Willow's hand on her thigh shift slightly, the thumb drawing a lazy circle, caressing gently. So many words in the tiniest gestures, their eyes speaking volumes. She quirked a half smile, then turned to face Buffy again.

>> Okay, the "so many words in the tiniest gestures" part? This is what they said.
>> Going still, biting her lip and gazing up at Tara with huge eyes: "I never want to do anything that would hurt you, baby."
>> The raised eyebrow: "Yes, but you want to have sex with Buffy, don't you?"
>> The thumb moving in a circle: "Well, uh, yes, but only if it's okay with you?"
>> The half smile: "Well, since you ask so nicely...okay."
>> I like the idea of couples who know each others' thoughts so well they can communicate with just a raised eyebrow and a smile. This is too early in the series for Willow's actual telepathy to be active yet, though. :-) (But we do know Tara can read people's auras at a glance, which might suggest how she knows she can trust Willow's feelings for her.)


"If you're s-sure you w-want to? I mean, you d-don't have to do this..."

"I want". She swung her legs around, got back up to her knees as Tara slid down into a cross-legged position beside the supine Willow and lay her lover's head in her lap. "I mean, if you want me to, Will?"

>> The need for explicit consent for each stage of a sexual encounter is something that's being talked about a lot in fandom at the moment. I'm proud to see I included it in this fic written two years ago. :-)

Willow didn't answer directly - in fact, knowing her as well as she did Buffy suspected her friend's brain might not be capable of processing speech at that point - but she mutely opened her legs wide. Which was, in Buffy's opinion, all the answer she needed.

>> Okay, Willow's consent was non-verbal; but I personally won't fault Buffy for taking Willow's action here as a "yes".

And so, this was it. Buffy crouched down between Willow's knees, took a deep breath. Felt her heart pounding in her chest, suppressed a stray thought that cried out What the hell am I doing?

>> So far Buffy has been letting herself get carried along by events. Yes, she's already had an orgasm courtesy of Willow, but she didn't actually have to do anything there except lie back and enjoy it. It could have been Riley rather than Willow and it would have been much the same for her. But now she's going to have to do something herself, which will be way more lesbian than anything she's done in her life before...

I'm doing something nice for my friend, she told herself sternly. Or I will be, any minute now. She looked at the, um, target area (It's a pussy. Say it. Pussy. Willow's pussy.), reached out a tentative hand.

>> I was quite nervous about actually typing that word myself, what with this bring my first explicit fic and therefore the first time I'd ever had to refer to genitalia on a public forum. :-) So that instruction "Say it" was directed to me as much as to Buffy.

>> I also struggled for a long time with what word to use. Personally, the word I'd use myself is 'vagina', but I've seen people complaining that it sounds too medical and clinical and would throw them out of the mood if used in fic. (Also, sticklers for accuracy would complain that it should be 'vulva' unless you're talking about the actual birth canal, which adds a whole extra level of complexity.) I'm also not sure it's something Buffy would say, and this fic is supposed to be from her POV. 'Pussy', in British English, is a very old-fashioned and twee-sounding word, but it's used so often in fanfic written by Americans that I got the impression it's a much more common word in American English. So, rightly or wrongly, I decided that Buffy would call it a pussy - and since the fic is written from her perspective, that's the word I use all the way through. My next NC-17 fic, written from Willow's POV, called it a vagina because I thought that's what she would say. Willow grew up reading medical textbooks, after all...


She'd never seen another woman's, er, (say the word...) pussy this closely before, not really - certainly not from this angle. It was... actually, it was kind of interesting.

>> I'm not sure about the 'certainly not from this angle' bit. I can't really see when she'd have been this close to one from any angle. :-) Another TMI style personal anecdote: I was once talking to a friend about tampon strings (as you do...) and she said, laughing, that the only way she'd be able to see her own was by standing on a mirror. Which kind of amazed me at the time, since a man certainly doesn't need a mirror to see his own genitals clearly enough and the idea that a woman couldn't do the same never really occurred to me. Or maybe she was just inflexible and couldn't crane her neck far enough forward? :-)

Damp reddish-brown hair curled tightly in on itself up around her little mound; delicate pink lips peeping moistly out of the dark, narrow slot. She gingerly touched them with the tip of her finger, and Willow gasped and twitched slightly. Buffy ran her finger up and down more deliberately, and her friend's breathing sounded loud and fast in her ears as her moisture wetted her hand.

>> Willow is already really, really horny, just from the idea of what's happening to her.

I can do this. I really can.

Her finger kept on rubbing up and down, the tip just starting to dip inside on each downward stroke, as she brought her thumb around to find Willow's clit. It was already firm, and the first brush drew a deep moan from her friend's throat.

Encouraged, Buffy began to rub more rhythmically. After all, she'd done pretty much the same to herself loads of times, hadn't she? This was no different. Just a new angle, different sensations... someone else's voice sighing and moaning softly...

Oh God. I've got my finger inside another woman's pussy.

>> I once read a piece of meta on "How to write slash" written by a gay man, and he said the precise moment in his life when he knew, without any doubt or equivocation, that he was now Officially Gay was when he first knelt down to take someone else' penis into his mouth. It was a no going back moment - and he said that other gay men he's discussed this with often felt the same way. I don't know if there's an equivalent defining moment for lesbians? But I decided that it was this specific action that would bring it home to Buffy, at least, that she's now having sex with another woman.

But no going back now. And truth be told, there was excitement mounting within the terror she felt; the gentle sounds Willow was making, the way her body quivered and rose to meet Buffy's fingers, the wetness, the faint musky smell, all knotted up inside her and caught her breath, clenched her throat, made her heart pound, her nipples stretch taut and almost painful in the night air.

>> Is that what having erect nipples feels like? As I explained at the beginning, I really don't know these things. Before posting the fic I did think seriously about trying to find someone who would know to beta it, but the idea of posting on my LJ saying "Wanted: woman, preferably lesbian, to discuss intimate details of female sexuality with a straight man she's never met before" just seemed too creepy for words. So I chickened out. (Mind you, I do think LJ is possibly the only place in the world where I could say that and not be thought skeevy. Maybe. I didn't risk it.)

She was going to do this. She wanted to. So without giving herself any more time for second thoughts, she knelt down, planting her face firmly in Willow's crotch, springy hair tickling her nose, licking long, slow and deliberately, taking in the taste, the texture, the hot, wet, squidgy womaniness of it all.

>> I'm deliberately trying to appeal to every sense here; touch and sound, but also taste (she is using her tongue, after all...), sound (Willow moaning), even smell (faint musky pheremones, that is. Remember I'm trying to keep this sexy. *g*) I wanted readers to feel like they were actually there, experiencing what Buffy is feeling.

"Buf-fy..."

Her friend's voice was almost unrecognisable, and Buffy couldn't help but glance up. Willow was propped against Tara, her face flushed red, each individual freckle practically glowing, and her eyes fixed raptly on Buffy, drinking her in as if she were the only sight in the universe. Tara seemed slightly distant, lost in her own world, one hand cupping her left breast as she absently tweaked her nipple, the other lightly stroking Willow's forehead. But she noticed Buffy look up, and gave a secret smile, then leaned over and pointed.

"She l-likes it if you lick here and here, on the s-sides? And try to kinda flick the end of your tongue, like this..." She demonstrated.

>> Like I said; Tara is keeping control of things. She's also being quietly possessive, by demonstrating that she's the one who best understands Willow's body and the things that bring her most pleasure.

Buffy felt herself blushing (again!) but smiled her thanks. She wanted to get it right; she felt grateful to Tara - and also kind of guilty. It wasn't fair to leave her out of things, was it? So she gestured with her free hand and smiled, "Why don't you lie down here next to Will?"

Tara looked surprised, then grinned. "Are you s-sure you've got the coordination to do both of us at once?"

>> Tara was happy to just watch ("I lived my life in shadow, never the sun on my face") but she's certainly not going to hesitate if Buffy wants to include her too.

"'S the Slayer, sweetie" Willow murmured, then added plaintively to Buffy, "The licking stopped."

>> I wasn't entirely sure if it's possible to simultaneously coordinate your tongue and your fingers to bring two women to orgasm at the same time, not ever having had the opportunity to try. :-) But if anyone can, I think a Slayer could. Not that it's likely to be something the Watchers' Council handbook talks about...

"Sorry." Buffy put her thumb where her tongue had been, pressing and rolling; slid her finger up inside Willow to find her G-spot, watched her friend gasp and turn her head to the side, her eyes half-lidded but still shining brightly, still gazing at Buffy in rapt wonder. Only then did Buffy realised she'd done that without any hesitation this time. Was she getting used to it? Or getting into it? Let's not think about that right now. Let's concentrate on what I'm going to do with Tara.

Buffy felt another twinge of nervousness. She'd known Willow for years, of course, but Tara was pretty much a stranger. What was she like? What did she like? She seemed so quiet and shy, Buffy assumed she'd probably want things slow and gentle. So she reached around under Willow's knee, stroked her hand slowly up Tara's thigh, glided it softly over her crotch, surprised to find (though she probably shouldn't have been) that it was almost as wet as Willow's. (And her own too, but she wasn't going to think about that just yet.)

>> Buffy's trying not to admit to herself that she's enjoying this, because that would mean having to think serious thoughts about her sexuality. She's not ready to do that. (And in Season 8 post-Satsu she didn't seem particularly ready either...) Also, this was another part where I had to carefully plot out in my head what position everybody was in and how I could make this work.

Then down the other side. Nice and slow -

Then Tara grabbed her hand, straightening out her middle and index fingers and pulling them towards her pussy. "Fuck me, Buffy. Fuck me hard."

>> Like I was saying... :-) You always have to watch out for the quiet ones.

Blink.

Buffy wasn't sure what her expression looked like, but it seemed to have sent Willow into a fit of giggles. Her friend glanced over to smile fondly at Tara, then looked back to Buffy with a raised eyebrow and a "What can you do?" expression.

>> I loved writing this. Willow obviously knows what Tara's like in bed, although I suspect she was as surprised as Buffy at first.

Buffy decided she'd have to, um, re-evaluate some of her basic assumptions about her friends' relationship.

Maybe later. Right now her two fingers were plunging deep inside Tara, gliding out and thrusting home, again and again, as the other woman bucked her hips and panted and swore and gasped "harder" and "faster" until Buffy's hand was a blur and the summer evening smelled of sex and sweat and passion. With a low moan of her own Buffy buried her face back in Willow's crotch, wanting to feel her, taste her, take her in; her tongue flickered back and forth, slow then fast then slow again, causing Willow to writhe and cry out and grab Buffy by the back of her head to pull her even closer in. As Willow arched her back, ground her hips around, thrusting them up towards Buffy's face she almost lost mouth contact; but ten thousand years of Slayer instincts kicked in and she found herself reading Willow's reactions, following her every move in a graceful dance, lips and lapping tongue never missing a beat, until she heard Willow groan in passion and a sudden gush of moisture soaked her chin, and at the same time Tara suddenly gasped and convulsed and her pussy muscles clamped down around Buffy's fingers, gripping and squeezing as both women's long shuddering cries of ecstasy echoed simultaneously into the night...

>> You can breathe again now. :-) I deliberately wrote that paragraph as one long, continuous breathless run-on piece of prose to act as the text equivalent of an orgasm, bringing Willow and Tara - and maybe one or two of my readers, hopefully - to a grand simultaneous climax.

>> The idea of Willow writhing and bucking her hips around, and Buffy using her Slayer instincts to read her movements and maintain a steady rhythm of licking, was one of my favourite ideas for the fic. Again, though, I doubt it's a skill the Council would train its Slayers in. :-)

And then they collapsed, side by side, soft, boneless, limp and happy. And Buffy looked at them both in a kind of bemused wonder, and wiped her lips, and thought "What the hell just happened here?"

>> I don't know, Buffy. What did just happen here? :-)

.
 

 

And that's it. Unless anyone else would like to request a commentary?

Comments

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 22nd June 2009 23:28 (UTC)

Hey, I think you did pretty great with this - not so much a need to be worried, really. :)

I kind of love Tara all the way through this one - she's all protective, but also fierce, which is pretty much how she should be.

& nice job on the consent! LOL.

Another TMI style personal anecdote: I was once talking to a friend about tampon strings (as you do...) and she said, laughing, that the only way she'd be able to see her own was by standing on a mirror. Which kind of amazed me at the time, since a man certainly doesn't need a mirror to see his own genitals clearly enough and the idea that a woman couldn't do the same never really occurred to me. Or maybe she was just inflexible and couldn't crane her neck far enough forward? :-)

That depends on what kind of stuff she's trying to look at. If you mean she couldn't see her own tampon string, that seems a little ridiculous to me - I mean, they hang down pretty far, like a coupla inches, although I suppose it depends whether you're sitting down or not. (I've never tried to see it when I'm standing up, I don't think, so maybe.)

But if we were talking actual genitalia here, it'd depend on whether you're standing, sitting, lying down, and what you're trying to see. The clitoris is visible from pretty much any angle, but anything beyond that, especially if you're standing or sitting and not spreading your legs a lot, probably wouldn't be too visible.

Errr. Not to be getting all TMI in your face. :D

Is that what having erect nipples feels like? As I explained at the beginning, I really don't know these things.

Fairly good descriptor, I'd say. I mean, the thing is, not everyone feels the exact same thing, and certainly no one would describe it in the same way - so as long as you're in the ballpark with the feeling, it's generally going to make sense and be okay.

Before posting the fic I did think seriously about trying to find someone who would know to beta it, but the idea of posting on my LJ saying "Wanted: woman, preferably lesbian, to discuss intimate details of female sexuality with a straight man she's never met before" just seemed too creepy for words. So I chickened out. (Mind you, I do think LJ is possibly the only place in the world where I could say that and not be thought skeevy. Maybe. I didn't risk it.)

Hey, I'd do it. You're probably initiated enough into girlporn that you don't need someone like this, but lemme know if needed.


Great commentary! Ohohoh, but I don't want the commentary meme to die, no no no! So, um, let's see...oh oh oh! Do Netherlands to Nepal! Kplz?

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 22nd June 2009 23:35 (UTC)

Oh, and sidebar: guys have nipples too, so you technically could have experienced the erect nipples thing before, yes?

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 00:09 (UTC)

Unless someone or something is actually touching them, I can't say I really feel any particular sensation there. But then, nipples make up a much smaller percentage of a man's body mass than they do a woman's. :-)

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 00:37 (UTC)

True. I dunno, but don't guys get erect nipples when it's cold?

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 09:37 (UTC)

Eh. Maybe? I can't say it's something I've noticed happening, anyway. Which doesn't mean that it doesn't; maybe I'm just very unobservant. :-)

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 15:24 (UTC)

Posted by: I write tragedies, not sins (mabus101)
Posted at: 24th June 2009 04:08 (UTC)

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 24th June 2009 16:23 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 24th June 2009 17:00 (UTC)

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 24th June 2009 21:36 (UTC)

Posted by: I write tragedies, not sins (mabus101)
Posted at: 24th June 2009 19:13 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 00:05 (UTC)

Thanks! :-)

nice job on the consent!

I'm actually thinking I should go through all the porn I've written now and see how I had my characters express consent in each of them. Some of them might not be as good. :-)


Errr. Not to be getting all TMI in your face

If I hadn't been curious to hear the answer I wouldn't have raised the subject. :-) And you have in fact given me new information here, which I might be able to put to use in a later fic... (So if "anything beyond that" would be difficult to see without a mirror, now I'm wondering how many girls do, indeed, get a mirror out at some point in their life? I mean, I'm pretty sure I would if it were me. Or would it be feasible for someone in Buffy's situation to think "Wow, I never realised that's what they looked like!"?


Hey, I'd do it. You're probably initiated enough into girlporn that you don't need someone like this, but lemme know if needed.

The offer is much appreciated. Thanks. :-) I don't think I'd need help with the basics, except maybe to double-check I've not missed something obvious - it's more the subtle or personal things like "what it feels like to do this" or the rhythms of the sex. Both from a specifically lesbian perspective and more generally from a woman's perspective.

I mean, re-reading this now I see that I've basically got Buffy fingering Willow for a short time then plunging her face into her crotch; while a lot of femslash written by women talks about butterfly kisses trailing gently down her stomach and things of that sort. So maybe a beta reader could point out that I need a little more gentle and patient foreplay (this is starting to sound like real life...); or alternatively, she might say no, in that situation where Willow is already totally turned on Buffy's direct approach would be exactly what she wants. (I know, I know, everybody is different. But I don't want to be too different.*g*)

Or another example; I was thinking about whether I'd ever write another installment of my Willow/Kennedy series, and I was wondering "What's a good example of something a lesbian couple who've been sleeping together for more than a year would just know about what their partner especially enjoys sexually, that I could show one of them doing? Something to show the bond between them without having to tell the readers directly. Or related to that; something Willow could be doing at the precise moment when the thought hits her "This is Kennedy, not Saga Vasuki" and she realises she'd rather be sleeping with Kennedy than anybody else in the world.

Apologies for going on about W/K if you're a W/T fan. :-)

Posted by: The Mezzanine (deird1)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 00:17 (UTC)
Totally TMI for you...

So if "anything beyond that" would be difficult to see without a mirror, now I'm wondering how many girls do, indeed, get a mirror out at some point in their life? I mean, I'm pretty sure I would if it were me. Or would it be feasible for someone in Buffy's situation to think "Wow, I never realised that's what they looked like!"?

Most women I know have, at some point in their lives, got a mirror out for exactly that purpose.

And I don't know about Buffy, but I can certainly tell you that I spent a very instructive afternoon with a mirror and a helpful wikipedia page, when I was twenty-four, figuring out which bit was what, and how it all fit together and looked...

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 09:54 (UTC)
Re: Totally TMI for you...

:-) A whole afternoon? :-)

For a man to do similar would require a very understanding partner. "Hold still a moment longer, love, I'm waiting for the page to load..."

Although I do admit that I held various misconceptions myself for *cough* an embarrassingly long time even after I should have known better.

I'd read several medical textbooks that described the clitoris as "the female analogue of the penis", and that it developed from the same basic structure in the foetus. So I assumed the clitoris had a hole in the end and women peed through it, because that's how it works with male genitals... In my defence, at least I knew about the existence of the clitoris, which is supposedly better than a lot of guys manage. :-)

Posted by: The Mezzanine (deird1)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 11:06 (UTC)
Re: Totally TMI for you...

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 11:37 (UTC)
Re: Totally TMI for you...

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 15:44 (UTC)
Re: Totally TMI for you...

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 00:36 (UTC)

I'm actually thinking I should go through all the porn I've written now and see how I had my characters express consent in each of them. Some of them might not be as good. :-)

You should do a write-up! I'd find it interesting. *nods*

So if "anything beyond that" would be difficult to see without a mirror, now I'm wondering how many girls do, indeed, get a mirror out at some point in their life? I mean, I'm pretty sure I would if it were me. Or would it be feasible for someone in Buffy's situation to think "Wow, I never realised that's what they looked like!"?

It can really go either way. Some people are probably too shy about it, or just don't really care. I never did until I got my first period, when my mother gave me a hand mirror and some ointment she insisted could be used as lube, and told me to "explore my body". Which, needless to say, I found incredibly embarrassing, but then did. XD

But it would totally be feasible for a girl not to know what female genitalia look like, cause unless you actually use a mirror, it's pretty impossible to know what it directly looks like down there.

The offer is much appreciated. Thanks. :-) I don't think I'd need help with the basics, except maybe to double-check I've not missed something obvious - it's more the subtle or personal things like "what it feels like to do this" or the rhythms of the sex. Both from a specifically lesbian perspective and more generally from a woman's perspective.

Yeah, I count as both, last time I checked. :D

I mean, re-reading this now I see that I've basically got Buffy fingering Willow for a short time then plunging her face into her crotch; while a lot of femslash written by women talks about butterfly kisses trailing gently down her stomach and things of that sort. So maybe a beta reader could point out that I need a little more gentle and patient foreplay (this is starting to sound like real life...); or alternatively, she might say no, in that situation where Willow is already totally turned on Buffy's direct approach would be exactly what she wants. (I know, I know, everybody is different. But I don't want to be too different.*g*)

Oh, I always figured that was done on purpose, to show what a dolt Buffy is at lesbian sex. So it worked for me. XD

Or another example; I was thinking about whether I'd ever write another installment of my Willow/Kennedy series, and I was wondering "What's a good example of something a lesbian couple who've been sleeping together for more than a year would just know about what their partner especially enjoys sexually, that I could show one of them doing? Something to show the bond between them without having to tell the readers directly. Or related to that; something Willow could be doing at the precise moment when the thought hits her "This is Kennedy, not Saga Vasuki" and she realises she'd rather be sleeping with Kennedy than anybody else in the world.

Hmmm. I'd probably opt for something not actually going on with the genitalia, because if you go for something more subtle, it'll probably look more like something a romantic couple would do.

Like - anyone going down on a girl could do any sort of thing. And Saga Vasuki, presumably, is pretty good at going down on girls - she's got the technique.

But maybe Kennedy always, like, looks up at her and smiles in the middle, or holds her hand, or makes sure to do some special foreplay - it really doesn't have to be woman-specific at all.

If that helps.

Apologies for going on about W/K if you're a W/T fan. :-)

Nah, it's cool, I'm actually a fan of both, although I used to be very much in the anti-K camp. I was just starting to write a commentary on my W/K fic Sundays at Nine and remembering how much I do like both pairs. ;)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 10:15 (UTC)

and told me to "explore my body"

You know, I can imagine Willow's mother doing exactly the same to her, and Willow reacting much as you did. :-)


I count as both, last time I checked

After I wrote that I did go back and think "It is clear that I know one's a subset of the other, rather than them being totally separate categories, right?" But I assumed you'd know what I meant. ;-)


I always figured that was done on purpose, to show what a dolt Buffy is at lesbian sex.

See now, this is EXACTLY THE SORT OF THING I MEANT!!! Because the idea that Buffy would come across as clumsy, inexperienced and basically bad in bed wasn't at all what I wanted to get across. Inexperienced, yeah, but not the rest of it. :-)

One of the best-known clichés is that men are mostly interested in the penetration and thrusting part of sex, and see the rest as mere preliminaries, wile for women the priorities are pretty much reversed. Now I'm wondering if it's the same for fanfic, and women would rather read twenty pages of slow, teasing build-up then one paragraph of, um, direct rhythmical genital stimulation (he said, trying to find an inclusive phrase that covers both gay and straight sex). While men would prefer the first paragraph of the story to start "After twenty minutes of foreplay..."
;-)

(And now I'm wondering if the concept of 'foreplay' is even a meaningful concept for lesbian sex, or if I'm being heterocentric and I should be talking about foreplay, duringplay, afterplay and just basically playplay. Or not. :-) )


looks up at her and smiles in the middle, or holds her hand, or makes sure to do some special foreplay

The hand-holding might work well. The looking up part I'd already included. :-) My only hesitation would be that it suggests "two people who are in love" rather than "two people who understand exactly how each others' bodies work". Which is fine, I mean, I do want to suggest the first as well; but also the second needs to come across.


Thanks again for the enlightening conversation. :-)

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 15:40 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 17:27 (UTC)

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 20:10 (UTC)

Posted by: Lily (lavastar)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 21:41 (UTC)

Posted by: eowyn_315 (eowyn_315)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 22:46 (UTC)

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 24th June 2009 01:20 (UTC)

Posted by: curiouswombat (curiouswombat)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 07:52 (UTC)
Tindómë

You know reading your commentary was fascinating as it is not long since I wrote the threesome involving Dawn in Middle Earth (don't know if you are still reading that, if so you'll know the one I mean!).

The explicit consent "Do you want? X will not unless you want, meleth." (X in case you haven't read, but decide to go and do so now - although the 'meleth' might give away who one partner is!). The fact that the driving force and the co-ordinating is done by the one who appears to be least physically involved, that one of the two regularly glances to check that that 'driving force' is happy and the comunication of these things in small glances and gestures...

Also the time it took me to visualise each move to be sure that no-one was having to be a contortionist.
Interesting that we were having similar thinky thoughts as we wrote what might seem quite different passages to anyone reading them.

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 10:23 (UTC)

It is interesting. I'm wondering if it's inherent in the dynamics of a threesome, expecially the kind often depicted in fic, that it needs careful negotiation between the people involved and maybe one individual driving things forward.


I confess I've not read your story updates recently, but only because I've been going through a phase of not reading much fanfic at all. It's definitely still on my list, though, along with two or three others I also need to catch up with sooner or later.

Posted by: curiouswombat (curiouswombat)
Posted at: 23rd June 2009 12:13 (UTC)
Hmm

maybe one individual driving things forward.

In a currently stalled story, at a point a good few chapters after where it is stalled, I have a threesome in the plan - and it has always been in my mind who will drive it forward. So, in this at least, you and I think the same way. Or possible - in this, at least you and I think the same way. Others might well, too!

Posted by: erimthar (erimthar)
Posted at: 24th June 2009 02:07 (UTC)
pic#87400756

I find "vagina" to be a very sexy word. Too much use of "pussy" and similar words makes a fic sound too Penthouse Forum-y.

I liked this story... it's some of your best porn, along with "And All My Secrets Laid Bare" and "Netherlands to Nepal."

Posted by: StephenT (stormwreath)
Posted at: 24th June 2009 02:40 (UTC)

Thanks. :-)

The problem with terminology is that for everyone who thinks Word A is sexy and Word B squicks them, there's someone else who thinks the exact opposite...

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